OT. Schools...normality and Coronavirus.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Sorry rA but why are teachers exempt from working in their front line roles on safety grounds due to contact with children (evidently low risk transmitters) whereas its OK for NHS, emergency services, shop workers, transport workers and many more to have to work when exposed to adults who seemingly are greater risk transmitters.

It wasn't long ago that you were saying that teachers were front line key workers. If that's so, they should step up to the plate and demonstrate that you were right in that assessment. You can't be a front line key worker sat at home iin front of a computer - although if you can then Im a front line key worker too.

I fully appreciate that it's easy for me to say as I can work from home and remain shielded, as a clinically vulnerable member of a group which has "contributed" 1 in 4 covid deaths. But we cannot just sit on our arses and wait for armageddon.

What if the armed forces had taken this view in previous conflicts and said they thought it was a bit risky to land on those Normandy beaches?

Finally suggesting the MPs go first is pathetic. Childshly daring a more vulnerable group to prove its safe for a less risky group is unworthy.

And to your other point about why shut the schools down in the first place then if its so safe? Simply because less was known about the nature of the virus 7 weeks ago I reckon.

I may be wrong, it may be a disaster to reopen, but the empirical evidence to hand now points to it being less risky, and two weeks more of the European experience may add more weight to that risk assessment - or may blow it out of the water.

[ramAnag]

Sorry rA but why are teachers exempt from working in their front line roles on safety grounds due to contact with children (evidently low risk transmitters) whereas its OK for NHS, emergency services, shop workers, transport workers and many more to have to work when exposed to adults who seemingly are greater risk transmitters.

It wasn't long ago that you were saying that teachers were front line key workers. If that's so, they should step up to the plate and demonstrate that you were right in that assessment. You can't be a front line key worker sat at home iin front of a computer - although if you can then Im a front line key worker too.

I fully appreciate that it's easy for me to say as I can work from home and remain shielded, as a clinically vulnerable member of a group which has "contributed" 1 in 4 covid deaths. But we cannot just sit on our arses and wait for armageddon.

What if the armed forces had taken this view in previous conflicts and said they thought it was a bit risky to land on those Normandy beaches?

Finally suggesting the MPs go first is pathetic. Childshly daring a more vulnerable group to prove its safe for a less risky group is unworthy.

And to your other point about why shut the schools down in the first place then if its so safe? Simply because less was known about the nature of the virus 7 weeks ago I reckon.

I may be wrong, it may be a disaster to reopen, but the empirical evidence to hand now points to it being less risky, and two weeks more of the European experience may add more weight to that risk assessment - or may blow it out of the water.

GP, you do seem to be being truly obtuse on this one.

1) Where have I said teachers are ‘exempt’?
2) Teachers were in the ‘frontline’ when I said that because the schools were still open.
3) Some teachers have remained in the ‘frontline’ some of the time since taking responsibility for ‘vulnerable’ children and the children of key workers.
4) You make a fair point about your condition but you know full well that I was referring to your occupation not your underlying health condition. If you now seek to make debating ‘capital’ from it I suggest you stay away from that corner shop.
5) Comparing this situation with the armed forces or wartime is utter nonsense and you know it.
6) I haven’t suggested MP’s need to ‘go first’. I’ve suggested it’s very difficult to take advice about working in close proximity with others from a group of individuals who won’t work in close proximity to each other themselves.
7) Yes...seven weeks ago there hadn’t been 35,000 deaths in this country caused by a virus we appear to be receiving ever more contradictory advice about every day.
8) Indeed...you ‘may be wrong’...just as the government was about care homes...but it’ll be too bloody late then won’t it?

For the record.
1) Only a minority of pupils are going to be able to return for a limited period of time. That is just a fact.
2) Parents feel just as strongly about this as people who work in schools and many will not send their kids back to school yet.
3) You’re a mathematician...consider how much the risk of a second spike increases with each class of 15/17 going home each day to mix with other family members before returning to school the next day.
4) As I have said before, I am not suggesting teachers should not under any circumstances return to work, but...they do need effective PPE - as probably do the children - and as the return is inevitably going to be partial for the rest of this academic year...why not wait and learn from what happens in Germany and Holland?

[MadAmster]

4) As I have said before, I am not suggesting teachers should not under any circumstances return to work, but...they do need effective PPE - as probably do the children - and as the return is inevitably going to be partial for the rest of this academic year...why not wait and learn from what happens in Germany and Holland?

So, it's OK for us to be the UK's guinea pig then

Seriously though, We Dutch have been a couple of weeks ahead of the UK all the way in this. Also behind some other countries. We have had the "benefit" of seeing what has happened there. The government has kept the public appraised of what was going to happen and why. Some may not have agreed with the reasoning but followed advice/rules all the same. Inevitable that once the unlocking started we'd also be a step or 2 ahead. From the safety of my home, hearing the reasoning, having read quite a lot of the science and experiences abroad, the current steps seem measured and acceptable.

Health workers, drivers, shop assistants, cleaners, teachers etc have remained in the "front line". One group or anther had to be the next. Considering the general consensus on children and CV-19, allowing them back to school is not an unreasonable step. The stats have them as low risk in regard to a) getting infected and b) infecting others. Having the children back in school will also free parents to go back to work or work more efficiently from home.......

Whether the stats are right or not, time will tell. My hope is that they are right.

[Trickytreesreds]

So, it's OK for us to be the UK's guinea pig then

Seriously though, We Dutch have been a couple of weeks ahead of the UK all the way in this. Also behind some other countries. We have had the "benefit" of seeing what has happened there. The government has kept the public appraised of what was going to happen and why. Some may not have agreed with the reasoning but followed advice/rules all the same. Inevitable that once the unlocking started we'd also be a step or 2 ahead. From the safety of my home, hearing the reasoning, having read quite a lot of the science and experiences abroad, the current steps seem measured and acceptable.

Health workers, drivers, shop assistants, cleaners, teachers etc have remained in the "front line". One group or anther had to be the next. Considering the general consensus on children and CV-19, allowing them back to school is not an unreasonable step. The stats have them as low risk in regard to a) getting infected and b) infecting others. Having the children back in school will also free parents to go back to work or work more efficiently from home.......

Whether the stats are right or not, time will tell. My hope is that they are right.

That is the point Maddy. Time will tell.
Everyone has to come out from under their rock eventually.
I think it is perfectly reasonable for us to get moving with the schools etc.

As you have just highlighted.
We are 2 weeks behiind you, 4 weeks behind others.
Should there be a spike elsewhere, we have an early warning system in place, to stop it all again.

Leave the elderly/infirm in isolation is fine by me.
The young, fit and healthy need to get on with picking the country up off its ass. Before these jobless figures go through the roof and it all gets nasty.

[ramAnag]

So, it's OK for us to be the UK's guinea pig then

Seriously though, We Dutch have been a couple of weeks ahead of the UK all the way in this. Also behind some other countries. We have had the "benefit" of seeing what has happened there. The government has kept the public appraised of what was going to happen and why. Some may not have agreed with the reasoning but followed advice/rules all the same. Inevitable that once the unlocking started we'd also be a step or 2 ahead. From the safety of my home, hearing the reasoning, having read quite a lot of the science and experiences abroad, the current steps seem measured and acceptable.

Health workers, drivers, shop assistants, cleaners, teachers etc have remained in the "front line". One group or anther had to be the next. Considering the general consensus on children and CV-19, allowing them back to school is not an unreasonable step. The stats have them as low risk in regard to a) getting infected and b) infecting others. Having the children back in school will also free parents to go back to work or work more efficiently from home.......

Whether the stats are right or not, time will tell. My hope is that they are right.

I prefer ‘benefiting from the experience of others’ to being our ‘guinea pig’, MA.
The UK government hasn’t covered itself in glory, imo, so far and we need all the help and advice we can get.
There seems to be some sort of ‘race’ as far as certain ministers are concerned so we can boast about how quickly we returned to ‘normal’ and I fear that might be horribly counterproductive.

As you rightly point out, we have been a couple of weeks behind you all the way through all this and I’d also add that the crisis in the UK has been rather deeper than the Dutch equivalent.

You’ve provided return dates elsewhere suggesting that Junior Schools will be returning, in one form or another on the 8th June and Secondary Schools on the 2nd June.
By my reckoning that suggests that in the UK, Junior Schools should sensibly consider reopening on the 22nd and Secondary Schools on the 16th.
That seems reasonable on the basis that by then the situation in the UK will have had another month to ‘settle’ and we’ll have had the benefit of seeing how our Northern European counterparts in Germany and Holland have coped.

Unfortunately I have read this morning in the New York Times, that in France many reopened schools have had to close because of the discovery of seventy new cases of Covid-19 in schools. It’s a relatively small number but points out the need for proceeding with the greatest of care and only with the appropriate PPE.

[ramAnag]

I may be wrong, but by my reckoning it’s now nine days since we last saw or heard from the PM. Any thoughts or explanations?

[Ram59]

[QUOTE=ramAnag;39498230]I prefer ‘benefiting from the experience of others’ to being our ‘guinea pig’, MA.
The UK government hasn’t covered itself in glory, imo, so far and we need all the help and advice we can get.
There seems to be some sort of ‘race’ as far as certain ministers are concerned so we can boast about how quickly we returned to ‘normal’ and I fear that might be horribly counterproductive.

As you rightly point out, we have been a couple of weeks behind you all the way through all this and I’d also add that the crisis in the UK has been rather deeper than the Dutch equivalent.

You’ve provided return dates elsewhere suggesting that Junior Schools will be returning, in one form or another on the 8th June and Secondary Schools on the 2nd June.
By my reckoning that suggests that in the UK, Junior Schools should sensibly consider reopening on the 22nd and Secondary Schools on the 16th.
That seems reasonable on the basis that by then the situation in the UK will have had another month to ‘settle’ and we’ll have had the benefit of seeing how our Northern European counterparts in Germany and Holland have coped.


Dutch primary schools and day care centres partially re opened on the 11th of May, RA and not 8th of June. So 2 weeks after that is 25th of May.

So do you agree with the Dutch fully re opening?

But as you rightly point out, the UK has had a worse outbreak and I would suggest that we were further than 2 weeks behind the Dutch.

[ramAnag]

[QUOTE=Ram59;39498393]

I prefer ‘benefiting from the experience of others’ to being our ‘guinea pig’, MA.
The UK government hasn’t covered itself in glory, imo, so far and we need all the help and advice we can get.
There seems to be some sort of ‘race’ as far as certain ministers are concerned so we can boast about how quickly we returned to ‘normal’ and I fear that might be horribly counterproductive.

As you rightly point out, we have been a couple of weeks behind you all the way through all this and I’d also add that the crisis in the UK has been rather deeper than the Dutch equivalent.

You’ve provided return dates elsewhere suggesting that Junior Schools will be returning, in one form or another on the 8th June and Secondary Schools on the 2nd June.
By my reckoning that suggests that in the UK, Junior Schools should sensibly consider reopening on the 22nd and Secondary Schools on the 16th.
That seems reasonable on the basis that by then the situation in the UK will have had another month to ‘settle’ and we’ll have had the benefit of seeing how our Northern European counterparts in Germany and Holland have coped.


Dutch primary schools and day care centres partially re opened on the 11th of May, RA and not 8th of June. So 2 weeks after that is 25th of May.

So do you agree with the Dutch fully re opening?

But as you rightly point out, the UK has had a worse outbreak and I would suggest that we were further than 2 weeks behind the Dutch.

Sorry Ram...my figures came from MA and he’s there.

My point is that we were behind the Dutch and experienced a much worse scenario. With that in mind I think we should be watchful of others before we send our kids back.

The situation in France gives cause for concern. As regards full time attendance...I can’t see how that wouldn’t be in breach of all our current social distancing rules at the moment.

I want a full return just as much as you but for me...small steps are the way forward and I very much hope for a full return in September but let’s not throw caution to the wind at this stage.