O/T:- Deserving of the sack?

[countygump]

You are absolutely right. Then it just gets bad again.

Everything seems to be pointing to the lockdown being finished. On BBC Breakfast this morning there was a guy defending raves. He was in Nottingham. The police should apparently ignore them, 99% go under the radar, they socially distance, take all litter home etc. 50 - 100 attending. At the same time I read that a wedding reception held outside would be limited to 6 people. Can't see why he was given a platform on TV to not only defend them, but encourage them!

Was watching CNN last night, seems there's been a 'spike' of new cases in the USA. It seems most new hospital cases are younger people, not older ones. The older ones tend to observe social distancing and wear masks etc. No doubt it will be the same here unless people observe the guidelines.

[BigFatPie]

Jackal, aside from the questionable value of the opinions of someone who (I presume, apologies if incorrect) has never experienced racism explaining how to cure racism, what does all that look like in real life?

How does a Muslim woman walking home with her kids ‘identify, discuss and challenge’ racial abuse in the street? Should anyone be free to racially abuse opposition players at Meadow Lane? If I call someone a racial epithet at work, should me and my victim have a sit down and ‘identify, discuss and challenge’, or (after due process) should I be sacked? It’s easy to be blasé about any sort of abuse and discrimination when you’re not on the receiving end.

[sidders]

Yemeni lives apparently don't matter. Biggest humanitarian crisis on the planet right now and our media completely ignore it. British and Americans selling the Saudis the bombs and weapons that are effectively wiping that country off the map.

The Guardian has covered this 'conflict' and the attendant hypocrisies quite comprehensively'

[jackal2]

Jackal, aside from the questionable value of the opinions of someone who (I presume, apologies if incorrect) has never experienced racism explaining how to cure racism, what does all that look like in real life?

Fair question. I did experience one incident of overt racism towards me many years ago from a small group of Asian people, but that was a one-off incident. I mention it only to answer your question honestly, not to justify the value or otherwise of my opinion. If nothing else I suppose it illustrates that racism can travel in any direction between different racial groups and nobody is immune from being a victim or perpetrator.

Incidentally, about five years ago I was in my local chip shop which is very well run by an Indian chap I’ve got to know over the years, when an obnoxious, drunken (white) woman staggered in and subjected him to a volley of racial abuse. She duly got a volley of abuse back from me and unsurprisingly departed without any chips! But I digress…

How does a Muslim woman walking home with her kids ‘identify, discuss and challenge’ racial abuse in the street? Should anyone be free to racially abuse opposition players at Meadow Lane? If I call someone a racial epithet at work, should me and my victim have a sit down and ‘identify, discuss and challenge’, or (after due process) should I be sacked? It’s easy to be blasé about any sort of abuse and discrimination when you’re not on the receiving end.

I’m not pretending there is a ‘textbook’ answer to all individual cases of extremism, including racism. I wouldn't want to witness any of the events you describe and I would try to intervene and stop them if I did. The world at its worst is a sh*t, nasty, unfair place and people will find all kinds of reasons and ways to be hostile to each other. The simple truth is we cannot always stop it happening.

However, a lot of the time the fundamental cause of an extremist’s (for example a racist’s) anger has little or nothing to do with the ostensible target of it. They blame and attack easily identifiable generic targets for whatever is wrong in their life, either because they cannot tackle or change the real cause of their perceived suffering, or because they aren’t courageous enough to look critically at themselves and examine their own failings and culpability.

If intense anger is there, whatever the cause, then sooner or later it is going to vent. You won’t solve the problem by silencing the voice of an extremist and forcing them to internalise such feelings or search out online echo chambers of likeminded people. Doing so only makes it more likely that the rage will erupt in more intense, sudden, violent, possibly murderous ways further down the line. And it might by then come from a large group of people rather than the classic ‘angry loner’.

I would rather be able to identify and try to deal with someone at the stage where they are able to express their views openly but verbally – as unpleasant as that may be to hear - rather than the stage where they are physically expressing it through attacks on businesses, stabbings, shootings, bombings, flying planes into buildings etc. In some cases, by allowing people to voice abhorrent views, you can at least identify them, engage with them, try to find out what their problem really is and hopefully find solutions that diffuse their misdirected anger before it escalates further.

[navypie]

Fair question. I did experience one incident of overt racism towards me many years ago from a small group of Asian people, but that was a one-off incident. I mention it only to answer your question honestly, not to justify the value or otherwise of my opinion. If nothing else I suppose it illustrates that racism can travel in any direction between different racial groups and nobody is immune from being a victim or perpetrator.

Incidentally, about five years ago I was in my local chip shop which is very well run by an Indian chap I’ve got to know over the years, when an obnoxious, drunken (white) woman staggered in and subjected him to a volley of racial abuse. She duly got a volley of abuse back from me and unsurprisingly departed without any chips! But I digress…



I’m not pretending there is a ‘textbook’ answer to all individual cases of extremism, including racism. I wouldn't want to witness any of the events you describe and I would try to intervene and stop them if I did. The world at its worst is a sh*t, nasty, unfair place and people will find all kinds of reasons and ways to be hostile to each other. The simple truth is we cannot always stop it happening.

However, a lot of the time the fundamental cause of an extremist’s (for example a racist’s) anger has little or nothing to do with the ostensible target of it. They blame and attack easily identifiable generic targets for whatever is wrong in their life, either because they cannot tackle or change the real cause of their perceived suffering, or because they aren’t courageous enough to look critically at themselves and examine their own failings and culpability.

If intense anger is there, whatever the cause, then sooner or later it is going to vent. You won’t solve the problem by silencing the voice of an extremist and forcing them to internalise such feelings or search out online echo chambers of likeminded people. Doing so only makes it more likely that the rage will erupt in more intense, sudden, violent, possibly murderous ways further down the line. And it might by then come from a large group of people rather than the classic ‘angry loner’.

I would rather be able to identify and try to deal with someone at the stage where they are able to express their views openly but verbally – as unpleasant as that may be to hear - rather than the stage where they are physically expressing it through attacks on businesses, stabbings, shootings, bombings, flying planes into buildings etc. In some cases, by allowing people to voice abhorrent views, you can at least identify them, engage with them, try to find out what their problem really is and hopefully find solutions that diffuse their misdirected anger before it escalates further.

"overt racism" by Asian people! Doesn't exist in Lardy's world jackman.

[Elite_Pie]

Fair question. I did experience one incident of overt racism towards me many years ago from a small group of Asian people, but that was a one-off incident. I mention it only to answer your question honestly, not to justify the value or otherwise of my opinion. If nothing else I suppose it illustrates that racism can travel in any direction between different racial groups and nobody is immune from being a victim or perpetrator.

Incidentally, about five years ago I was in my local chip shop which is very well run by an Indian chap I’ve got to know over the years, when an obnoxious, drunken (white) woman staggered in and subjected him to a volley of racial abuse. She duly got a volley of abuse back from me and unsurprisingly departed without any chips! But I digress…



I’m not pretending there is a ‘textbook’ answer to all individual cases of extremism, including racism. I wouldn't want to witness any of the events you describe and I would try to intervene and stop them if I did. The world at its worst is a sh*t, nasty, unfair place and people will find all kinds of reasons and ways to be hostile to each other. The simple truth is we cannot always stop it happening.

However, a lot of the time the fundamental cause of an extremist’s (for example a racist’s) anger has little or nothing to do with the ostensible target of it. They blame and attack easily identifiable generic targets for whatever is wrong in their life, either because they cannot tackle or change the real cause of their perceived suffering, or because they aren’t courageous enough to look critically at themselves and examine their own failings and culpability.

If intense anger is there, whatever the cause, then sooner or later it is going to vent. You won’t solve the problem by silencing the voice of an extremist and forcing them to internalise such feelings or search out online echo chambers of likeminded people. Doing so only makes it more likely that the rage will erupt in more intense, sudden, violent, possibly murderous ways further down the line. And it might by then come from a large group of people rather than the classic ‘angry loner’.

I would rather be able to identify and try to deal with someone at the stage where they are able to express their views openly but verbally – as unpleasant as that may be to hear - rather than the stage where they are physically expressing it through attacks on businesses, stabbings, shootings, bombings, flying planes into buildings etc. In some cases, by allowing people to voice abhorrent views, you can at least identify them, engage with them, try to find out what their problem really is and hopefully find solutions that diffuse their misdirected anger before it escalates further.

I agree with a lot of what you say jackal. I think the most prolific recruiting agents for jihadi terrorists are the EDL, and the most prolific recruiting agents for the EDL are jihadi terrorists. There has to be a line drawn somewhere however as to when freedom of speech becomes an incitement to break the law. If you take freedom of speech to an extreme it would give p aedophiles the right to speak out on why they think s exually abusing children is acceptable. I don't think defeating them with counter-argument is really an option.

[navypie]

Jackal, aside from the questionable value of the opinions of someone who (I presume, apologies if incorrect) has never experienced racism explaining how to cure racism, what does all that look like in real life?

How does a Muslim woman walking home with her kids ‘identify, discuss and challenge’ racial abuse in the street? Should anyone be free to racially abuse opposition players at Meadow Lane? If I call someone a racial epithet at work, should me and my victim have a sit down and ‘identify, discuss and challenge’, or (after due process) should I be sacked? It’s easy to be blasé about any sort of abuse and discrimination when you’re not on the receiving end.

Only you and the wonderfully entertaining tarkers ( who was hounded from this board by dreary driller ) seem to like bringing Muslims into the conversation.

ps. To a lesser extent, dreary driller tried the same with me.

[BigFatPie]

I disagree Jackal. I think there should be zero tolerance to racists and racism in all its forms. Written, verbal, systemic, institutional.

We could help to eradicate racism by firstly teaching kids some of the less glorious chapters of British history.

[navypie]

A great philosopher once wrote; ‘Man who goes to bed with itchy arse wakes up with smelly finger’. Makes you think dunnit?

Word for word, I heard the same response to a tweet recently though not on the same subject. Nice to see where you get your material Lardy.

[BigFatPie]

Word for word, I heard the same response to a tweet recently though not on the same subject. Nice to see where you get your material Lardy.

I wouldn’t be surprised if you’d heard it before, it’s fckin ancient.

The original sh!t post deserved another one in response.