OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[MadAmster]

.... and over here, and probably in the UK as well, something like 25% of students graduating find that the job they had started training for 4 years earlier no longer exists due to technological advances.

While still teaching, I was pushing for change. Some things are pretty universal in their use. Your own language is important to get on "at home". In NL we teach kids Dutch and English right through secondary school. We also give German and Spanish in the first 3 years. As a small nation relying on foreign trade it is imperative that we converse in different languages. It also opens those countries up as possible places to move to and work. Maths is important but the basics is sufficient for most people's needs. The sciences are important too. For those who go to a more "academic" school, they get a broad spectrum of skills and knowledge. These "academic" schools have 4 levels. Gymnasium (7 years), VWO (6 years), HAVO (5 years) and VMBO (4 years). VMBO students get work experience in the 3rd and 4th years. Some go straight to work after that. The others go on to MBO courses of 2, 3 or 4 years. These are work related courses and half of each year consists of work experience. The level is about that of the old HNC/HND courses. HAVO qualifies you for the majority of "Uni" courses. VWO and Gymnasium are necessary to go on to "proper" studies such as Law or Medicine... The sorts of study you went to Uni for 50 odd years ago rather than the "lighter" subjects studied at those institutions that were poly's until recently.

We need to rejig the curriculum to enable schools/Unis to prepare kids for the real world.

My part in it was to add stuff into my curriculum for them that nobody else did. Using music to teach grammar. Giving background to the language, customs and history. They all thought GB/UK/England were one and the same thing. There are those in the UK who might agree with that. I'd teach them how the flag morphed from the St G Cross the the Union Flag and why the Welsh flag isn't part of it. Even did things like regional accents. Reason for that was to show them that learning English at school and picking up American from the TV wouldn't prepare them for the verbal onslaught they wouldn't understand from, for instance, a Geordie or a Scouser..... and yes, I did throw in some Derbyshire for good measure. Sin tin intit? Nah, tint in tin. or enay sane im wayer........ Some of them will even remember why Albert Village is better known as Borrernok. And all the while ensuring they also learnt the things needed in the standard curriculum sufficiently well to ace any exams set. In Computer Science it was building websites and creating databases after the basic Office stuff. Powerpoint? Not just how to make a presentation and what NOT to do, but also HOW to give the presentation verbally. Some were reticent at first in "public speaking" but I managed to persuade them all to give it a go and, they all did in the end. Body language, voice intonation, use of your eyes.... all about communication. I also added in how to prepare themselves for giving the same presentation in different ways aimed at the specific group to whom they would be speaking. Most thought it would be just the same regardless of the target audience. I'd explain that, to a point, they were right. Each group would have the same unspoken question they wanted answering, namely, What's in it for me? Directors and Senior Management have totally different expectations to Middle Management who want different info to Junior Manager or Supervisors and the "shop floor" need yet another approach. They all got the idea quickly.

I'll end this post with kudos for TTR. Post #6400 is spot on and I agree with you.

[ramAnag]

I agree with your statement regarding about where too much kudos is given to academic achievement but disagree, not for the first time, where the blame lies.

The biggest misdirection we have had in recent times, was the Labour infatuation that every pupil should go to university. University became the only achievement worthwhile. Polytechnics turned into universities and children wanting to get a trade all but disappeared. Children were taught that they could do anything they wanted and were reluctant to start at the bottom, when starting work.

Consequently, we have a workforce now, that believes many jobs are below them, resulting in the need for the numbers of immigrants, who are willing to do these jobs.

I would think that the 'old school tie' would favour the old idea of university education for the rich or the brilliant and the others prepared to work in more mundane jobs.

Labour's policy was flawed, the aim to have over 50% of students to go to university, when way under 50% of jobs require a University education. This can only result in disappointment for many with worthless degrees and no suitable job to go to. These students have their aspirations built up, only to be cruelly let down when they realise that they have been so ill prepared for work life.

Wasn’t it Thatcher rather than Labour who was really responsible for all that, Ram? I was heavily involved in the early meetings regarding the merger of BLCE with Derby Tech into what is now Derby University. Those meetings began in the mid ‘70’s but really took off under Thatcher. Derby’s aim of Polytechnic status was originally declined and the merged college became ‘Derby Lonsdale College’ before suddenly being granted University status in, I think, 1992...five years before Blair came to power.
Suddenly in the late ‘80’s - early ‘90’s everywhere seemed to have a University as much, if I remember correctly, as a means of manipulating youth unemployment figures as for any other reason.

My point is that those with practical skills are often looked down on. For me that is wrong as good plumbers, joiners, builders, engineers etc are often real craftsmen who are amongst the cleverest and most valuable members of society. They might not be so good at ‘book learning’ but, imo, attendance on practical courses that produce expertise in the types of trades/crafts mentioned above is every bit as worthwhile as the academic courses which produce the so called professional classes...politicians, solicitors and accountants (no offence GP), and yet we all know where the ‘status’ lies.

P.S. Tbf, MA...the DT curriculum does still include metalwork and woodwork although there is possibly a greater emphasis on electronics, computer studies and food tech. than was once the case. The problem, I think, is a shortage of appropriate staff. Wonder why? Maybe it’s a lot easier and more lucrative to earn a living using such skills than teaching them these days.

[MadAmster]

Here's an example rA. We have a further school type in NL called the "green school". They started in the agricultural areas teaching the less/non academic kids the skills they'd need to be sucessful at flower/fruit/veg growing. They expanded to include all the manual areas. It's a 4 year course. First 2 is 80% practical within school doing everything you can think of from carpentry, welding, bricklaying, cooking, sewing, making clothes, music and a host of other things. 3rd and 4th year was practical work.

The brother in Law's girlfriend's son went to a green school. Excelled at cooking and did his 2 work experience stints in years 3 and 4 at 2 different Michelin star restaurants. End of year 4 he got an offer from the 2nd restaurant but he'd already accepted a job at a M star place in Switzerland. March this year it shut due to CV and he was out of a job and came back to the Netherlands. Pretty soon the owner of restaurant #2 fund out he was back. They had just bought out place that had built a good rep on spare ribs and chips and on roast chicken and chips. They shut it and were going for a new concept. They asked Rick to set up the new menus, upgrade the kitchen and then run the kitchen including kitchen staff hire, procurement... the lot. he's 23. It opened 8 weeks ago and is doing a roaring trade in Amsterdam Zuid, an up market area of the city. We ate there 2 weeks ago. Bloody marvellous, basically. He's done amazingly well for someone who isn't academically blessed.

There are more like him. Discover what they CAN do and train them to do it properly. They are more than capable of taking it from there.

Give the kids what they REALLY NEED not what some dumbass think tank thinks they do

[swaledale]

I agree with your statement regarding about where too much kudos is given to academic achievement but disagree, not for the first time, where the blame lies.

The biggest misdirection we have had in recent times, was the Labour infatuation that every pupil should go to university. University became the only achievement worthwhile. Polytechnics turned into universities and children wanting to get a trade all but disappeared. Children were taught that they could do anything they wanted and were reluctant to start at the bottom, when starting work.

Consequently, we have a workforce now, that believes many jobs are below them, resulting in the need for the numbers of immigrants, who are willing to do these jobs.

I would think that the 'old school tie' would favour the old idea of university education for the rich or the brilliant and the others prepared to work in more mundane jobs.

Labour's policy was flawed, the aim to have over 50% of students to go to university, when way under 50% of jobs require a University education. This can only result in disappointment for many with worthless degrees and no suitable job to go to. These students have their aspirations built up, only to be cruelly let down when they realise that they have been so ill prepared for work life.

The only thing I disagree with in your statement is the use of immigrants to fill jobs that Uk citizens feel are below them, yes jobs in low skilled low paid industries like vegetable picking, food packing cleaning care sector and hospitality are shunned by many here, but in the main thats due to most being able to get better opportunities elsewhere. But there are also many jobs which are well paid and skilled, for which the labour force isn't there, recruting the right employees across sectors is an issue.

There are number of factors at work, but the biggest is demographic, we have had a declining birthrate for decades, bar the odd blip and there simply aren't the young people entering the labour market. That gap has been filled by immigration, its what has kept this economy going.

There is the technological development which has seen jobs replaced by machines often low skilled low paid jobs but increasingly this trend is going up the skill ladder. But it also changes the nature of jobs that could be undertaken by someone without a degree, nursing is one example which has become much more complex and now requires a degree.

Then there is education, as people gain more education, they will naturally not be looking to earn a living slaving away on a low wage, I mean would you?

[ramAnag]

Good example and I’m not disagreeing with you at all, MA. I’d just like to see an end to the association of status with differing forms of knowledge.
Generally speaking, estate agents, solicitors and accountants etc have to be ‘better’ qualified and have higher social status than plumbers, heating engineers, chefs and carpenters but which are, ultimately, more useful?

[MadAmster]

I know of two friends who, in the dim and distant past, both worked as estate agents. Both had about a month of on the job training, nothing formal. They used historical prices and current rises/drops in valuations to value properties. They always advised buyers to get a structural engineer or surveyor to survey the building and give a full report on any and all deficiencies.

One went on to work in a bookies, driving jobs, dodgy sales jobs and eventually on the Toyota production line. He has 8 O levels and is recently retired.

The other has a ruck of O's and 2 As. Did part time what is now known as HR qualifications and she is HR Director of a large local (to the Derby area) company.

Many roads lead to Rome. It's what you do when you one to the end of the road that determines where you will end up.

With regard to plumbers and heating engineers, I know that you need rather more than a cracking "sharp intake of breath" to be successful. All power to their elbows.

[Ram59]

It was Blair at the 1999 Labour conference, who proclaimed that his intention was to get over 50% of pupils into further education, although this figure was only reached a couple of years ago.

I feel that this target, together with the continuing need for improvement of exam grades, has done nothing to improve the preparations of our children for real life.

Both Conservative and Labour governments have been guilty of following this line over the years, resulting in non academic pupils being left to feel inadequate.

I speak from the experience of my sons from both ends of the academic grades. With no school encouragement, but guidance from his parents, my eldest son took on a trade and hasn't looked back since. Out of the 3, he is the one who is in by far the best financial state, in spite of the other 2 gaining good masters degrees in engineering, although he still feels inferior to his siblings, because of his lack of academic qualifications, 16 years ago.

Grade inflation is meaningless, its just there for successive governments to pat themselves on the back. I had an offer for a place at Birmingham University for mechanical engineering in 1977 with a C and a D in maths and physics. Now, I would need probably 3 Bs or more. Are today's pupils that much more intelligent than me, my Mensa IQ score of 138 would suggest not.

[ramAnag]

I know of two friends who, in the dim and distant past, both worked as estate agents. Both had about a month of on the job training, nothing formal. They used historical prices and current rises/drops in valuations to value properties. They always advised buyers to get a structural engineer or surveyor to survey the building and give a full report on any and all deficiencies.

One went on to work in a bookies, driving jobs, dodgy sales jobs and eventually on the Toyota production line. He has 8 O levels and is recently retired.

The other has a ruck of O's and 2 As. Did part time what is now known as HR qualifications and she is HR Director of a large local (to the Derby area) company.

Many roads lead to Rome. It's what you do when you one to the end of the road that determines where you will end up.

With regard to plumbers and heating engineers, I know that you need rather more than a cracking "sharp intake of breath" to be successful. All power to their elbows.

Ah yes, MA...but the estate agents probably have letters after their names. The Head I took over from, who was one of the few I got on with very well, suggested - when DCC provided a new sign - that he put the letters he was entitled to after his name. The CDT teacher and I told him that if he did we’d add four little letters (including two ‘T’s). Strangely he stuck with just his name.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Spot on, mista. In fact I’d go so far as to say a lot more than just a ‘generation’.
There is a real problem in this country - and elsewhere - with the ‘status’ given to different forms of knowledge.
For far too long, imo, ‘academic’ knowledge has received a level of kudos seldom offered to more ‘practical’ forms of learning/knowledge which continue to be looked down on.
It’s nonsense imo but, as long as government remains so dominated by an ‘old school tie’ Oxbridge educated elite, things will never change.

You almost had me there, agreeing with all of the above, but then of course it was all the governments fault comes rolling out!

[Trickytreesreds]

You almost had me there, agreeing with all of the above, but then of course it was all the governments fault comes rolling out!