OT Trump prematurely ejaculates

[ramAnag]

Isn't it refreshing to be told by an enlightened Liberal that we should not have open minds but must form fixed opinions rather than see both sides of an argument. I'm thinking this is precisely the situation that Andy was searching for a word for yesterday.

The world is full or grey rA, not everything is black and white.

To answer you final point, no I wouldn't want that change made here, but I'm struggling on the relevance of that to the entirely different position in the USA. You are, culturally and socio economically comparing chalk to cheese.

I’m not ‘telling anyone’ anything GP...I was asked for my opinion.
I have no difficulty with and totally respect the argument put forward by Ram, as a gun club member, and MA too.

But yes, we do surely have to reach a decision and, as I’ve said, imo there can be no justification for members of the public owning automatic and semi automatic weapons. Personally I’d go further but I recognise I may not be right about that.

The world may well not be ‘black and white’ and instead be ‘full of grey’, GP but somethings just transcend that ‘greyness’...pea-dophilia, driving at excessive speed through built up areas, drinking and driving, rape, domestic abuse, child abuse. We’d all, I presume agree that such actions are universally wrong (although you’d probably throw in a red herring about emergency service drivers for #2)...and to that I’d add parading through US cities carrying weapons that would have looked more at home on the battlefield.

I don’t understand your suggestion that comparing the UK and the US is like ‘culturally and sociology economically comparing chalk and cheese’...it isn’t imo, but the fact that ultimately you don’t want to replicate the US situation over here speaks volumes. It’s also interesting that this is the first time you’ve made clear your family’s vested interest in guns but please don’t try and compare your, I again presume, responsible family members with some of those we saw brandishing automatic weapons in the States.

Adi...we’ve got used to not going out, being unable to leave the country, not being allowed to go to gigs and the theatre and having to wear masks in recent months. Why? Because it’s in the interests of the common good. You say, with complete common sense imo, that personally gun ownership should be restricted to the police, the military and farmers but gun owners wouldn’t like it. If that upsets those who want to have a gun in the house...tough...I like driving quickly and would love to drive on Mways at 120mph, but I don’t because I recognise we need rules for the common good.

[Andy_Faber]

If I was living in the US now, I would definitely have a legal firearm for my own protection and probably to enjoy the sport of target shooting once more. What I would vote against, is the right of normal citizens to own fully automatic weapons and guns that fire larger calibre bullets.

With illegal gun ownership so widespread in the US, I don't think that it'll ever be possible to take away the right of law abiding citizens to own a firearm for their own protection.

Would I support it in this country, no way. Having said that, I was upset to lose my own pistol used for sporting purposes only. I believed at the time and still do, that the ban was too general. In my instance which was the most common category, my pistol was a single shot .22 pistol. Even if I practiced hard, I would struggle to reload the single bullet in less than 5 seconds, this bullet being only around 5mm in diameter. It would be impossible for someone to go wild with such a weapon causing multiple fatalities. Put it like this, if I was put in a room with someone else for a fight to the death and was given the choice of such a weapon or a kitchen knife, I would choose the knife every time.

Same with my 4/10 Ram, if there was an intruder I would have been more effective hitting him with it, and I agree the ban was too draconion/knee jerk

[Geoff Parkstone]

"I’m not ‘telling anyone’ anything GP...I was asked for my opinion.
I have no difficulty with and totally respect the argument put forward by Ram, as a gun club member, and MA too."


ive read and reread this thread now and nowhere can I find anyone asking your opinion of whether AF and I should "get off the fence", that one is of your making alone and, as is clear from my reaction, is one that I find strange. Firstly I think IM allowed my opinion and secondly I am allowed to have different perspectives within that opinion. So the question of "make your mind up" is wholly of your making. At least stand behind it and dont blame others

"somethings just transcend that ‘greyness’...pea-dophilia, driving at excessive speed through built up areas, drinking and driving, rape, domestic abuse, child abuse. "

I agree, some things do transcend, and I would add gun crime and knife crime to that list. I would not add gun ownership to the list any more than I would add people having children, car ownership, drinking alcohol etc etc to the list. You are trying to tackle the crimes of a few by banning the normal legal actions of many.

I further agree that automatic weapons have no place in a society, particularly what amount to machine guns, but there are automatic and automatic: not all are the same - a 6 shot auto hunting rifle is very handy when deer shooting (a great american favourite) whilst an Uzi sub machine gun takes the sport away somewhat and has no place. neither however have a place in the streets of Chicago, but then again nor do handguns on the street.

"I don’t understand your suggestion that comparing the UK and the US is like ‘culturally and sociology economically comparing chalk and cheese’..."

In america they have no effective gun control, we do. In america they are habituated to having a gun, the right is enshrined in their primary legislation, their constitution. They are culturally and socio economically attuned to having guns. I would not wish to live in that sort of society, hence I would not want a loosening of controls here so as to be like them, because I am not culturally etc used to uncontrolled guns: despite having grown up around them. It is my norm to have controlled guns in my society.

In america the exact opposite is true, everything about them is about guns. Their norm is to be around them, own them, use them. To tell them to not have/use etc would be revolutionary and I dont think they could cope with such a fundamental change without a lot of kick back. It would be like telling the Chinese not to eat rice - a dagger at the core of their very being. Tell me I have the ability to eat rice, I can still chose not to.

#1 would give uk the option to have uncontrolled guns if people chose to do so, #2 is taking away a "god given right". Very different scenarios.

"It’s also interesting that this is the first time you’ve made clear your family’s vested interest in guns"

I didnt realise I had to declare interests on the witness stand! But actually I don't have a vested interest. The business closed down a couple of years after the Hungerford Massacre inspired clamping down on ownership, although my brother still has a personal interest in clays and pheasant etc shooting.

[Ram59]

The world may well not be ‘black and white’ and instead be ‘full of grey’, GP but somethings just transcend that ‘greyness’...pea-dophilia, driving at excessive speed through built up areas, drinking and driving, rape, domestic abuse, child abuse. We’d all, I presume agree that such actions are universally wrong (although you’d probably throw in a red herring about emergency service drivers for #2)...and to that I’d add parading through US cities carrying weapons that would have looked more at home on the battlefield.



These things that transcend 'greyness' RA. A 16 year old lad sleeping with his 15 years 11 months 25 day old girlfriend is committing an offence for which he could be put on the *** offenders register alongside the dirty old men who prey on young girls. Likewise, the unsuspecting motorist driving at 25 mph down a road which has been 30 mph limit for the last 50 years, compared with a boy racer hurtling down the street in his souped up Civic. Or someone who had a few drinks last night, still being a few milligrams over the limit the following morning, compared with his mate the night before, who could barely stand before driving home from the pub. Two work colleagues get totally drunk on a business trip and end up sleeping with each other. Both are horrified that they've cheated on their partner, but the man is guilty of rape, just like a serial rapist who picks on women walking home alone.

There is greyness almost every where you look, RA

[ramAnag]

"I’m not ‘telling anyone’ anything GP...I was asked for my opinion.
I have no difficulty with and totally respect the argument put forward by Ram, as a gun club member, and MA too."


ive read and reread this thread now and nowhere can I find anyone asking your opinion of whether AF and I should "get off the fence", that one is of your making alone and, as is clear from my reaction, is one that I find strange. Firstly I think IM allowed my opinion and secondly I am allowed to have different perspectives within that opinion. So the question of "make your mind up" is wholly of your making. At least stand behind it and dont blame others

"somethings just transcend that ‘greyness’...pea-dophilia, driving at excessive speed through built up areas, drinking and driving, rape, domestic abuse, child abuse. "

I agree, some things do transcend, and I would add gun crime and knife crime to that list. I would not add gun ownership to the list any more than I would add people having children, car ownership, drinking alcohol etc etc to the list. You are trying to tackle the crimes of a few by banning the normal legal actions of many.

I further agree that automatic weapons have no place in a society, particularly what amount to machine guns, but there are automatic and automatic: not all are the same - a 6 shot auto hunting rifle is very handy when deer shooting (a great american favourite) whilst an Uzi sub machine gun takes the sport away somewhat and has no place. neither however have a place in the streets of Chicago, but then again nor do handguns on the street.

"I don’t understand your suggestion that comparing the UK and the US is like ‘culturally and sociology economically comparing chalk and cheese’..."

In america they have no effective gun control, we do. In america they are habituated to having a gun, the right is enshrined in their primary legislation, their constitution. They are culturally and socio economically attuned to having guns. I would not wish to live in that sort of society, hence I would not want a loosening of controls here so as to be like them, because I am not culturally etc used to uncontrolled guns: despite having grown up around them. It is my norm to have controlled guns in my society.

In america the exact opposite is true, everything about them is about guns. Their norm is to be around them, own them, use them. To tell them to not have/use etc would be revolutionary and I dont think they could cope with such a fundamental change without a lot of kick back. It would be like telling the Chinese not to eat rice - a dagger at the core of their very being. Tell me I have the ability to eat rice, I can still chose not to.

#1 would give uk the option to have uncontrolled guns if people chose to do so, #2 is taking away a "god given right". Very different scenarios.

"It’s also interesting that this is the first time you’ve made clear your family’s vested interest in guns"

I didnt realise I had to declare interests on the witness stand! But actually I don't have a vested interest. The business closed down a couple of years after the Hungerford Massacre inspired clamping down on ownership, although my brother still has a personal interest in clays and pheasant etc shooting.

Okay...in monochrome.

Andy asked my opinion. Part of that opinion is that people should indeed ‘get off the fence’ and recognise that the widespread ownership and availability of arms in the US is a bad and dangerous thing.

You’re basically agreeing with me but clearly know more about specific guns. I haven’t opposed gun ownership as such, but I can’t think there is any justification for public ownership of automatic weapons and that guns would be better off kept out of the home. Appreciate the deer hunting point...very popular in a part of the country I am familiar with, but does even a ‘6 shot auto hunting rifle’ really need to be kept in the home?

So you don’t want a US attitude to guns over here but you think, because it is the historical norm, it’s okay over there. I accept the difference but what I am arguing is that such ‘norms’ have to be challenged. It was once the ‘norm’ to treat women as subservient, to make blacks on public transport give up their seats to whites, to kill and displace native Americans, and to unquestionably burn as many fossil fuels as was felt necessary. Fortunately, through the process of intellectual/social evolution, some, if not all those attitudes have and are being challenged. That, imo, must also happen with gun ownership. I doubt very much if it will happen in our lifetime although I would hope the changes in law as regards the ownership of automatic weapons might be more imminent.

Of course you don’t...and Hungerford was over thirty years ago. Unfortunately such incidents in the USA have been far more common, but your family’s involvement does inevitably alter your perspective. Makes you both more knowledgeable about weapons, but less sympathetic to the restrictions I speak of...imo.

[Ram59]

The world may well not be ‘black and white’ and instead be ‘full of grey’, GP but somethings just transcend that ‘greyness’...pea-dophilia, driving at excessive speed through built up areas, drinking and driving, rape, domestic abuse, child abuse. We’d all, I presume agree that such actions are universally wrong (although you’d probably throw in a red herring about emergency service drivers for #2)...and to that I’d add parading through US cities carrying weapons that would have looked more at home on the battlefield.



These things that transcend 'greyness' RA. A 16 year old lad sleeping with his 15 years 11 months 25 day old girlfriend is committing an offence for which he could be put on the *** offenders register alongside the dirty old men who prey on young girls. Likewise, the unsuspecting motorist driving at 25 mph down a road which has been 30 mph limit for the last 50 years, compared with a boy racer hurtling down the street in his souped up Civic. Or someone who had a few drinks last night, still being a few milligrams over the limit the following morning, compared with his mate the night before, who could barely stand before driving home from the pub. Two work colleagues get totally drunk on a business trip and end up sleeping with each other. Both are horrified that they've cheated on their partner, but the man is guilty of rape, just like a serial rapist who picks on women walking home alone.

There is greyness almost every where you look, RA

I mean't where a new 20 mph limit had been installed, above.

[ramAnag]

The world may well not be ‘black and white’ and instead be ‘full of grey’, GP but somethings just transcend that ‘greyness’...pea-dophilia, driving at excessive speed through built up areas, drinking and driving, rape, domestic abuse, child abuse. We’d all, I presume agree that such actions are universally wrong (although you’d probably throw in a red herring about emergency service drivers for #2)...and to that I’d add parading through US cities carrying weapons that would have looked more at home on the battlefield.



These things that transcend 'greyness' RA. A 16 year old lad sleeping with his 15 years 11 months 25 day old girlfriend is committing an offence for which he could be put on the *** offenders register alongside the dirty old men who prey on young girls. Likewise, the unsuspecting motorist driving at 25 mph down a road which has been 30 mph limit for the last 50 years, compared with a boy racer hurtling down the street in his souped up Civic. Or someone who had a few drinks last night, still being a few milligrams over the limit the following morning, compared with his mate the night before, who could barely stand before driving home from the pub. Two work colleagues get totally drunk on a business trip and end up sleeping with each other. Both are horrified that they've cheated on their partner, but the man is guilty of rape, just like a serial rapist who picks on women walking home alone.

There is greyness almost every where you look, RA

I understand your points Ram, except that 1) That is neither pea-dophelia or child abuse. 2) I was talking about extreme and irresponsible high speed driving. 3) My reference was to blatant drinking and driving. 4) The scenario you describe doesn’t involve ‘rape’.

Acknowledge your point about ‘greyness’ however I suspect you know full well you are playing ‘devil’s advocate’ and taking us up a blind alley.
My point remains that we have certain taboos within society and that the public ownership of weapons more suited to use in wartime should be amongst them. It is in the UK...think it should be in the USA too.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Sad to say that until you get your US citizenship rA, all this is so much pissing into the wind. Only they can change their attitudes and under the influence of Trump plus the NRA that isnt going to happen. It will be interesting to see if Biden dares touch it, but I doubt he will if he wants a second term (if he lasts that long, at his age)

Keeping the guns in the home? I suspect as regards the USA it the best place for them, and they should be kept in a secure environment, not unlike here, but thats a huge culture shift. I will end this by noting that I still respect the right to have guns in the UK in the way its currently regulated despite the following.

At the age of 13, one of my son's friends got the key, went into his Dad's secure gun cabinet with it, took out what I think was a rabbit hunting (he was a keen lamper) 22 rifle and shot himself dead. No-one knows exactly if it was an accident or not. He was a nice kid, a bit flaky perhaps, but. At a stroke a whole family devastated, parents wracked with guilt Im sure, think they split up. Friends just unable to understand it.

Misused, guns can destroy families lives, even when kept in a secure environment. At that moment I doubted my views on freedom to hold licence, but as has been said in this debate before, the whole world cannot change for one person's error

[Andy_Faber]

Apologies if my comment earlier has led us down many garden paths, my point wasn't even about gun control...

[ramAnag]

Sad to say that until you get your US citizenship rA, all this is so much pissing into the wind. Only they can change their attitudes and under the influence of Trump plus the NRA that isnt going to happen. It will be interesting to see if Biden dares touch it, but I doubt he will if he wants a second term (if he lasts that long, at his age)

Keeping the guns in the home? I suspect as regards the USA it the best place for them, and they should be kept in a secure environment, not unlike here, but thats a huge culture shift. I will end this by noting that I still respect the right to have guns in the UK in the way its currently regulated despite the following.

At the age of 13, one of my son's friends got the key, went into his Dad's secure gun cabinet with it, took out what I think was a rabbit hunting (he was a keen lamper) 22 rifle and shot himself dead. No-one knows exactly if it was an accident or not. He was a nice kid, a bit flaky perhaps, but. At a stroke a whole family devastated, parents wracked with guilt Im sure, think they split up. Friends just unable to understand it.

Misused, guns can destroy families lives, even when kept in a secure environment. At that moment I doubted my views on freedom to hold licence, but as has been said in this debate before, the whole world cannot change for one person's error

Lol...although there is much I admire about the States, not least the landscape, I don’t covet citizenship, GP.

Would have thought your horribly sad account of your son’s friend’s death is a good illustration of why guns shouldn’t be kept in the home, I’d also dispute your description of the gun cabinet as ‘secure’.

Hopefully Biden will try and instigate some small steps to change things. Trump certainly didn’t...quite the reverse.

There’s a saying/justification in the States...’the best thing to stop a bad man with a gun is a good man with a gun’. I understand the sentiment, but ultimately I fear such inevitable escalation in gun ownership (not ‘one person’s error’) only leads to too many guns falling into the hands of the irresponsible.