O/T. The Government's handling of Covid

[Ram59]

So the shortage of nurses (around 50,000 vacancies) has absolutely nothing to do with Tory government then? You know cutting the financial assistance for training, worsening their salaries and working conditions? I know a number of medical staff who have left the NHs, because they were fed up by May and Hunt's high handed unsympathetic handling of their issues.

Then its clear from the effects of Covid-19 and where it has hit hardest that this and previous Tory governments austerity policies, lack of a cohesive and meaningful social care and health policies, cutbacks in local authorities and other public services have all contributed to a worse situation than it would have been.

So its wrong to say the lack of staffing is down to absenteeism, it isn't its down to lack of qualified, experienced medical staff, I mean even this government admitted it was around 50,000 nurses short!!

I agree to a certain point Swale, but you would assume that the government knew the staffing levels when making the decision to build the Nightingales and thought that there would be enough staff. What they didn't anticipate was the very high level of absenteeism in the NHS, whilst the pandemic was on. What I have been told is that in one department at Heartlands hospital there are a number of staff falsely staying off work and if this is replicated throughout the NHS, this would explain the shortage of staff for the Nightingales.

Although, the media would never dare to investigate anything against NHS staff. In an interview today, a nurses leader said that her members had all been rushed off their feet since March, which is simply not true. Throughout the summer hospitals were begging people not to avoid going to A&E. I know from personal experience and that of a number of friends, including the last few days, that many departments of our local hospitals are half empty with many nurses standing around with not a lot to do. Surely, spare staff on these non covid wards could be used in the Nightingales. The organisation at local level seems to be very poor. Only today, I heard of a local nurse who recently left the service for a 'better' post, only to realise she missed the work at Heartlands and applied to return to her old post, she's still waiting a reply six weeks later.

[ramAnag]

You miss the point entirely. We have a worse deal than staying in, at an economic level, which is what everyone has been saying, because we did not vote to leave the EU on the basis that e would get the same (or better) deal. We traded that against "sovereignty" and the cost of membership.

So the question is, has the less beneficial trade deal been a price worth paying for the winding down of our net contribution to EU funds, and the somewhat more tenuous sovereignty advantages

...with respect (seriously) I’d suggest it’s you who’ve rather missed the point. You are essentially an economist who understands more than the majority of folk about such matters. Do you honestly imagine that the majority of Leavers knowingly voted for being worse off and having a worse trade deal with our nearest trading neighbours?

You understood that...me too to probably a lesser extent...but I very much doubt the average, or below average, voter did.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I have no idea what basis people chose to vote on., only my own analysis of what we would give up for what we get back. Different people will have different elements in that equation, and apply different weighting to those elements based on their beliefs, needs, etc

But (and I might be naive here) for example, let's say someone is a member of a snooker club. If they chose to leave that club and save the £ 50 annual subscription, why would they believe that they could still go down the club and play a frame whenever they wanted, or buy a pint in the subsidised bar?

I'm not one to overestimate the intellect of Joe public, but I suspect most people would get that they give up the membership benefits when they chose to leave the club. You don't need to be an economist to figure that out, surely?

Now the EU, for all its complexities, is essentially a club offering benefits to members for a price. We leave the club, we lose membership benefits.

Do you believe that most leave voters didn't understand that simple theory? If so then I have to say that the education system in this country has badly let down the nation.

[ramAnag]

I have no idea what basis people chose to vote on., only my own analysis of what we would give up for what we get back. Different people will have different elements in that equation, and apply different weighting to those elements based on their beliefs, needs, etc

But (and I might be naive here) for example, let's say someone is a member of a snooker club. If they chose to leave that club and save the £ 50 annual subscription, why would they believe that they could still go down the club and play a frame whenever they wanted, or buy a pint in the subsidised bar?

I'm not one to overestimate the intellect of Joe public, but I suspect most people would get that they give up the membership benefits when they chose to leave the club. You don't need to be an economist to figure that out, surely?

Now the EU, for all its complexities, is essentially a club offering benefits to members for a price. We leave the club, we lose membership benefits.

Do you believe that most leave voters didn't understand that simple theory? If so then I have to say that the education system in this country has badly let down the nation.

I believe that the Leave vote was made up of a combination of predominantly elderly people who wanted a return to some sort of ‘Rule Britannia’ singing land of ‘how we used to live’, jingoistic racists, and then the majority, who swallowed the lies about borders and how we’d all be so much better off, to the tune of at least £350m a week, by leaving the EU and going it alone.

I’ve used the ‘club analogy’ many times myself and I completely ‘get it’, but it’s interesting that only now are those who’ve consistently spoken in defence of Brexit - from little old you to Michael Gove - beginning to voice the disadvantages.

As for blaming the education system...just another of your wind ups and really not worthy of a response.

P.S. On the actual subject of the thread and playing to your strengths...if, by my reckoning and with no criticism of anyone at all, it’s going to take at least 15 weeks from the first moment of vaccination for any individual to have protection against Covid...how long until those of our age and those in the 25-50 age group receive protection?

[Andy_Faber]

P.S. On the actual subject of the thread and playing to your strengths...if, by my reckoning and with no criticism of anyone at all, it’s going to take at least 15 weeks from the first moment of vaccination for any individual to have protection against Covid...how long until those of our age and those in the 25-50 age group receive protection?

Not sure how you worked that out ra, the Pfizer vac gives 95% protection 26 days after the first jab if the second one is given so that’s mid-January, 6 weeks, for early adoptors.

But mainly my response is to highlight that there are a number of fairly consistent ready reckoners on t’t net where you can punch in a set of criteria inc age etc and get an estimated jab date. My date with destiny is between early March and late May, Mrs F is May/June

[Geoff Parkstone]

I'd guess for myself optimistically that I might get jab by 31-03 and so could be able to go to the Open with some confidence.

As regards "now voicing the disadvantages" it's nothing new. From day 1 I have always been aware of the trade off, as evidenced by being accused of sitting on the fence (evaluating the tradeoff &#128521 for so long. It ain't nuffink new.

And yes the failing of the education system was a wind up BUT there is an underlying truth. Its interesting that you have so little faith in the decision making prowess of the generations that the education system has provided, at least, as regards basic analytical skills. This is not so much a criticism of the practitioners but the system more keen on teaching, for example, RE or Gendered Awareness rather than simple personal decision making or other practical skills. All have a place, but I'm not sure the latter is emphasised enough. But that's a whole new debate.

[Andy_Faber]

And yes the failing of the education system was a wind up BUT there is an underlying truth. Its interesting that you have so little faith in the decision making prowess of the generations that the education system has provided, at least, as regards basic analytical skills. This is not so much a criticism of the practitioners but the system more keen on teaching, for example, RE or Gendered Awareness rather than simple personal decision making or other practical skills. All have a place, but I'm not sure the latter is emphasised enough. But that's a whole new debate.

Having seen my kids’ year groups go through the parallel experience of state and independent schooling I couldn’t agree more. A teacher friend describes it has knowing what rainbow shoe laces represent but not knowing how to tie them

[swaledale]

I agree to a certain point Swale, but you would assume that the government knew the staffing levels when making the decision to build the Nightingales and thought that there would be enough staff. What they didn't anticipate was the very high level of absenteeism in the NHS, whilst the pandemic was on. What I have been told is that in one department at Heartlands hospital there are a number of staff falsely staying off work and if this is replicated throughout the NHS, this would explain the shortage of staff for the Nightingales.

Although, the media would never dare to investigate anything against NHS staff. In an interview today, a nurses leader said that her members had all been rushed off their feet since March, which is simply not true. Throughout the summer hospitals were begging people not to avoid going to A&E. I know from personal experience and that of a number of friends, including the last few days, that many departments of our local hospitals are half empty with many nurses standing around with not a lot to do. Surely, spare staff on these non covid wards could be used in the Nightingales. The organisation at local level seems to be very poor. Only today, I heard of a local nurse who recently left the service for a 'better' post, only to realise she missed the work at Heartlands and applied to return to her old post, she's still waiting a reply six weeks later.

You'd assume that they would know the PPE they were ordering was fit for purpose?

You'd assume that the test and trace system they spent millions on was fit for purpose?

You'd assume that the phone app they paid to be developed would work?

I mean either there is a shortage of 50,000 nurses or there isn't and if there is, then thats a fact.

Also its not just staff numbers, but staff who ahve the right training to be able to staff the wards, handling seriously ill patinets , some on ventilation in ICU is not your average nurses job.

Its true that from June onwards, hospitals were Ok, and patients were avoiding hospital for routine treatment.

Its a little dangerous to deduce conditions across the country based on local experience, some areas are overstretched, others are not.

Yes NHS could work better, though to be fair my experience over the years has been very good, however, again look at the never ending series of "reforms" funding cuts and part privatisation which successive Tory governments have inflicted on it which is a big part of the reason its not as efficient as it could be.

[MadAmster]

Overall there are in excess of 100K vacancies in the NHS from cleaners, porters right through to surgeons...........

[Geoff Parkstone]

/time to bring in workers from overseas then! I'm sure there are a few Europeans around! As for the more menial roles needing filling, it would be nice to think that the furloughed or otherwise unemployed millions might step up as a temporary fix where regular staff are sidelined by covid or fear of covid, But then I woke up