O/T:- Covid Trump

[jackal2]

Jackal, Your post raises a few questions.

Regarding Wednesday’s events, who listens to whose concerns or grievances and what do you think they are? And what do you think will happen if they’re not listened to? (the obvious answer being they might launch an attack on the legislative and try to overthrow an election but we’ll forget about that for the time being).

Over 74 million Americans voted for Donald Trump. No doubt amongst them (and clearly amongst the protesters last Wednesday) were a section of Nazis, Q Anon conspiracy theorists and other right-wing nut jobs. Likewise, Biden’s 81 million voters no doubt will have included a section of leftist nut jobs including the Antifa mob, who are very proficient in causing chaos and attacking law and order.

You seem keen to foster the emotive notion that the violent, extreme element involved in the protests last week are representative of all those who protested, and all those who voted for Trump. That’s as ridiculous as saying that thugs like Antifa are representative of all the 81 million who voted for Biden.

What we know is that there are 74 million Americans who, after 4 years of Donald Trump’s presidency, chose to re-endorse his policies rather than the ones proposed by Biden and the Democrats.

I would suggest that Biden needs the listen and respond to the concerns and grievances of that 74 million, not least for his own benefit. Those concerns will be complex and wide-ranging, but what we do know is that Trump’s “drain the swamp” mantra appealed to a lot of them. The perception seems to be that the Washington elite (and by no means just Democrats) are increasingly disconnected from the views, needs and fears of small town America.

A good starting point for the new President will be to demonstrate with words and actions that he is listening very carefully to those parts of America that didn’t vote for him. This is notably where Trump fell short during his four years in that he tended to dismiss his opponents too readily and often rather rudely, which is a good way to push those folk closer to the likes of Antifa.

Biden has already said he will “govern for all Americans”. However, those who voted twice to “drain the swamp” are likely to regard that as typical political establishment bullsh*t. Biden through his actions needs to show the vast, non-violent, non-extreme majority of those 74 million Trump supporters that he does care about them and their communities and does hear their concerns, and that he will seek to address at least some of them.

A good starting point is to make very clear in his attitude, words and actions that he does not dismiss almost half of America as a bunch of redneck racist, reckless gun-toting, religious fundamentalist idiots. I’m not suggesting he does think that, but there are plenty on the left who are only too happy to create that emotive impression and use it as a reason to completely dismiss their concerns as “wrong” and “not worth listening to”.

If Biden succeeds in reaching out to just some Trump voters, then not only will he stand a decent chance of re-election (health permitting), but he will undermine their impression – real or not - that the political establishment doesn’t hear or listen to them. In turn, this will diminish the risk of increasing numbers of these people getting driven in frustration towards more extreme methods of making themselves heard.

[i961pie]

No matter what happens to Trump those grievances that the 70 million voters had that voted for him won't go away.
They may go quiet for a while, months maybe years but unless they are listened to all it will take is another individual to come along and
awaken it.

[BigFatPie]

‘Biden has already said he will “govern for all Americans”. However, those who voted twice to “drain the swamp” are likely to regard that as typical political establishment bullsh*t. Biden through his actions needs to show the vast, non-violent, non-extreme majority of those 74 million Trump supporters that he does care about them and their communities and does hear their concerns, and that he will seek to address at least some of them’.

Ok, putting last week’s events to one side, let’s pretend that those were indeed despicable people who were in no way representative of Trump voters more generally. Those particular people obviously wanted to overturn the election result, but what other concerns should Biden address that would indeed demonstrate that he cares about Trump voters and their communities?

Also, how did any of those people benefit from voting for Trump in 2016?

[i961pie]

‘Biden has already said he will “govern for all Americans”. However, those who voted twice to “drain the swamp” are likely to regard that as typical political establishment bullsh*t. Biden through his actions needs to show the vast, non-violent, non-extreme majority of those 74 million Trump supporters that he does care about them and their communities and does hear their concerns, and that he will seek to address at least some of them’.

Ok, putting last week’s events to one side, let’s pretend that those were indeed despicable people who were in no way representative of Trump voters more generally. Those particular people obviously wanted to overturn the election result, but what other concerns should Biden address that would indeed demonstrate that he cares about Trump voters and their communities?

Also, how did any of those people benefit from voting for Trump in 2016?

Only an American living over there can tell you that, I know members and ex members of the military are mainly pro republican whoever the leader is.

[jackal2]

Ok, putting last week’s events to one side, let’s pretend that those were indeed despicable people who were in no way representative of Trump voters more generally.

I’m not asking you to pretend. You’re entitled to think whatever you wish to think of them.

It seems implicit that you believe these despicable people are representative of many Trump supporters, and I get the impression from posts you’ve made in the past that you think much the same about Brexit voters and maybe anyone who votes for conservative parties. I may be wrong though. If that cap doesn't fit, then I don't expect you to wear it.

Some people who consider themselves “progressives” do seem to regard pretty much any right-leaning view as despicable, even when it is expressed to them in a measured, respectful way. This loathing of anything “unprogressive” manifests itself frequently through online platforms but also in parts of the media and wider society. People who express views at odds with the “progressive” agenda are often subject to scorn and portrayed as outcasts, using whatever pejorative term is closest to hand.

It’s therefore little wonder that many right-leaning folk tend to keep their opinions to themselves to avoid such hassle. But they don’t disappear. In fact, when they witness people who share similar views getting treated to the ire of “progressives”, especially on social media, it makes them all the more determined to kick back through a referendum like Brexit, and elections like the UK General Election and the US Presidential Election.

Amazingly, victories for the likes of Trump, Brexit and Boris Johnson somehow still come as a shock to some “progressives”, who genuinely don’t seem to appreciate how effective they are in creating or mobilising the very voters they despise. That shock then manifests itself in even more hostility towards those who dare to publicly express the “wrong” views or vote the “wrong” way, and the whole thing continues to ratchet up. It’s in this climate that someone like Donald Trump was able to enter the political stage from nowhere, portray himself as aggressively ‘anti-establishment’ and ‘anti-progressive’, and attract around 70 million votes. Twice.

Ironically, having opportunistically profited from the mistakes of the political establishment in 2015, Donald Trump then made the same mistake in return. He ignored or showed complete disdain for anyone who dissented from his views. He didn’t just alienate moderate left-wing folk and centrists, but some right-wing folk too. In the same way that the arrogance of the political class pushed some voters unexpectedly towards him in 2015, his own arrogance pushed some of them back again in 2020.

So how does Biden avoid the mistakes that won and lost Trump the Presidency?

What concerns should Biden address that would indeed demonstrate that he cares about Trump voters and their communities?

You said the other day that you now wanted Biden to push through an intensive progressive agenda, or words to that effect. The problem with that, at least as a blanket policy, is that he is effectively in charge of (at least) two countries within a huge country.

The Democrat-voting states obviously provided his basic mandate, but even within those states will be many Republicans and moderate Democrats who do not want the pace of change to go too fast. Likewise, in the Republican voting states there will be many people fearing that change will be imposed on them at great pace across a huge range of social and economic policy areas, including the ones which always cause the most emotive debate.

If Biden is going to govern for all America, rather than just those who believe in a liberal/left agenda, he needs to recognise these fears concerns even if he doesn’t fundamentally agree with them. He must manage the pace of change differently in different parts of the country, which can be done in America by giving individual states leeway to implement his agenda at a pace that is sensitive to their individual characteristics.

If Biden does this, he is more likely to succeed in the changes he wishes to make, and he is more likely to convince at least some amongst 70-plus million very sceptical (and in some cases angry) people that his intention is not to attack and destroy their culture and way of life, but to gently modify it.

On the flipside, if he imposes policy change too fast in a “one size fits all” way, and is seen to be ignoring those who complain or resist, or worse still treating them with disdain, then he will reinforce the perception that Washington is a remote self-serving swamp, reduce his chances of being a two-term President, and fuel the agenda of right-wing anarchists, much like Trump's attitude fuelled Antifa.

[BigFatPie]

Hmm, I’m still none the wiser as to what you think Trump voter’s concerns are or what Biden should do to assuage them. I’ve no idea what you think he should do to prevent another attack on the Capitol, or other acts of domestic terrorism. Drain the swamp’ is a catchy slogan, but like many populist slogans is essentially meaningless. 15,000 troops are being deployed to DC for the inauguration.

As I said before, Trump has awakened the latent racism that many people feel, however I think you are ducking that issue. I do think that Biden will find it difficult to contain that genie, but even so will be a far better president than Trump, and will benefit the vast majority of Trump voters far more than Trump himself. I think is still forgotten that politicians should be in office to improve people’s lives rather than just being the best at getting people to vote for them. But as you’ve said before, you don’t mind politicians lying to you. I think we’ve seen in the last year where that leads to.

[drillerpie]

I think this is now an interesting conversation between Jackal and BFP.

To answer BFP's questions about Trump voter concerns, I'd say that election fraud is the main one right now. This is not an ideal situation; as some Republican senators pointed out before the confirmation hearing, a fair part of the electorate don't have confidence in the result of the last election, which is a problem in any democracy, but the reason they don't have confidence in it is because the sitting president has lied through his teeth about it for weeks. Can you start derailing the process of inaugurating the new president, in the middle of numerous crises, for no other reason than the current president is a sore loser? For me the answer is no, although a way does need to be found to increase confidence in future elections.

Then I'd say there's a feeling that the government, of whichever of the two traditional parties happens to be in power, is not working in their interests. This is probably true, in as much as corporate and donor interests are very high up the list of traditional Rep/Dem priorities, but the paradox is that Trump, despite his 'drain the swamp' rhetoric, took that to a whole new level.

Other grievances would probably be that the media doesn't represent their views or interests fairly, which I have some sympathy with, but again there's the paradox that a lot of Conservative media is no better and is in fact arguably worse. In any case, this is one of the huge challenges of our time, especially regarding social media, which provides users with either content that enrages them or content that mirrors exactly what they already think, in order to keep them engaged and keep producing billions in ad revenue for the big tech companies. It's remarkable how politics has changed the world over since people started using social media, and these companies are getting rich while polarisation increases and our democracies creak under the weight of misinformation. This simply can't continue as it is now.

Apart from that there would be the classic conservative grievances of gun rights and abortion, and of course law and order, although that will have actually pushed some conservatives and centrists away from Trump in the past few days.

[BigFatPie]

I think this is now an interesting conversation between Jackal and BFP.

To answer BFP's questions about Trump voter concerns, I'd say that election fraud is the main one right now. This is not an ideal situation; as some Republican senators pointed out before the confirmation hearing, a fair part of the electorate don't have confidence in the result of the last election, which is a problem in any democracy, but the reason they don't have confidence in it is because the sitting president has lied through his teeth about it for weeks. Can you start derailing the process of inaugurating the new president, in the middle of numerous crises, for no other reason than the current president is a sore loser? For me the answer is no, although a way does need to be found to increase confidence in future elections.

Then I'd say there's a feeling that the government, of whichever of the two traditional parties happens to be in power, is not working in their interests. This is probably true, in as much as corporate and donor interests are very high up the list of traditional Rep/Dem priorities, but the paradox is that Trump, despite his 'drain the swamp' rhetoric, took that to a whole new level.

Other grievances would probably be that the media doesn't represent their views or interests fairly, which I have some sympathy with, but again there's the paradox that a lot of Conservative media is no better and is in fact arguably worse. In any case, this is one of the huge challenges of our time, especially regarding social media, which provides users with either content that enrages them or content that mirrors exactly what they already think, in order to keep them engaged and keep producing billions in ad revenue for the big tech companies. It's remarkable how politics has changed the world over since people started using social media, and these companies are getting rich while polarisation increases and our democracies creak under the weight of misinformation. This simply can't continue as it is now.

Apart from that there would be the classic conservative grievances of gun rights and abortion, and of course law and order, although that will have actually pushed some conservatives and centrists away from Trump in the past few days.

Thanks for the attempt at answering the questions I had, Jackal seems reluctant to for whatever reason.

Yeah, there seems a sizeable proportion of Trump voters who think the election was ‘stolen’. Baseless of course, but enough for some to riot the other day and others to no doubt shout at their telly(I do that a lot). We know why they all think that. Trump certainly didn’t work in anyone’s interest except for himself, other rich people and fossil fuel interests. The big victory for him and other right wing politicians is they they convince enough people that they’re working in their interests. Which brings us on to the ..l

The media haven’t been mentioned much in this thread. You could say that Trump fans have been radicalised by Fox and OAN and FB and Parler(good old free speech). That’s the world these days.. There’s the right wing print media in this country, people who buy those newspapers will swear blind they’re not being influenced but we all know they are, otherwise why would billionaires bother with them in the first place. Corbyn and Starner would have been rinsed day in day out if they had done the same job as Johnson has done in charge of the pandemic, and they would probably have been forced to resign. The vaccination programme has been going well, suddenly international comparisons are being welcomed again.

Trump voters are certainly concerned with abortion and gun rights, I don’t know what Jackal thinks Biden should do about those issues, we have a decent idea what the evidence says, I’m guessing Jackal thinks Biden should ignore the evidence to placate Trimp voters, who knows.

Yesterday evening Biden tweeted that he was going to increase the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour, it’s currently $7.50 an hour, though some states(largely Democrat) have something higher. It hasn’t been raised since 2009. Trump voters will probably dismiss that as ‘socialism’ but will help far more people than ‘draining the swamp’ or any other fatuous slogan.

We all know what right wing leaning people are against, it’s about time they thought about what they are for.

[BigFatPie]

By the way Driller, I’m interested in what you think would have happened if that been a BLM protest last week?

[jackal2]

Thanks for the attempt at answering the questions I had, Jackal seems reluctant to for whatever reason.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) I don’t have all day to spend on NCM providing instant responses to every question you ask, but I'll respond as and when I wish to.

As 1961pie said, trying to encapsulate the views of over 70 million voters or even several thousand protesters into a few paragraphs is not an easy task for someone who doesn’t even live in the USA. Drillerpie has made a very good effort to do so and I generally think his observations are fair. There will no doubt be many other factors too.

I am not “ducking” the issue of the latent racial tension which is well documented in American society, but neither am I fixating on it. Amongst the Trump voters there will be hardline racists who will never engage with Biden and with whom it is probably impossible to reason in general. Likewise, I doubt even the most conciliatory of Republicans would get far in trying to open up a constructive dialogue with Antifa and their like.

However, there will be millions of Trump/Republican voters who are not racists and Q Anon conspiracy theorists. That’s why I focused on the broader strategic point that Biden must try to engage with as many of these disillusioned (but not deranged) voters as he can. He needs to listen and try to understand their views and concerns. He must avoid the mistake of dismissing all Trump voters as a bunch of racist, gun-toting, bible-bashing, violent loons.

Given the generally calm and constructive tone of the new President I don’t think he will adopt a dismissive attitude. It doesn’t appear to be in his nature. His problem may be whether some of his Democrat/’progressive’ colleagues will be as constructive, or whether their instinct is to ignore, deride, or even punish a significant portion of the population for holding views that differ their own.