OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[swaledale]

I thin that we have to also look at the "cost" of the value added by immigrants in, to take your example, the delivery sector.

No doubt many foreigners work in this sector, in which I will also add Uber as they are now in that sector - in over 100 call outs I have been picked up by over 100 foreigners, never once a clearly obvious "white english person".

I don't care who performs the service, for so long as it is performed satisfactorily.

Why is this? Is it that the native workforce is too lazy, or unqualified. I suspect the former and not the latter. But the other factor is that migrant transient workers come a lot cheaper. They are prepared to work for less money - perhaps due to not paying tax, or perhaps due to lower expectations and lower costs of living "back home" where much of their remuneration is heading.

So employers get a better deal and hence the (largely) unskilled migrants in this sector add value - at least they add value to the employer. But what about "society at large". I now a few people who are in this gig economy whilst furloughed or redundant or just people looking for a first job / students - and can barely get a look in because they are priced out of the market. An expectation of £ 10 an hour is laughed at - offers of between £6 and £7 are more likely. Doesn't even cover the vehicle and insurance costs unless you get 50 hours a week.

So yes, the immigrant workers are useful, and cheap. But that means the native workforce is then on state benefits, so add that into the equation and, assuming (and its a big assumption) that the home work force would take up these jobs if there were no migrant workers, Im not sure its good for UK plc, even if it is for the employers.

Clearly this does not apply to all, its just an example taken from rA thread. Cheap imported unskilled labour isnt useful to UK plc despite being a boon to individual employers; imported skilled and semi skilled labour is, and the ability to select what UK plc wants is a positive.

A rather "broad brush" approach and dealing with only one area of the economy. Of course the pandemic has changed the goal posts somewhat, how remains to be seen in detail, but pre Covid, the hospitality, health, agriculture and food sectors depended upon migrant labour, cut that off and there will be big problems that will hit the economy.

I will give but one example from the last twenty years, I assisted in setting up a manufacturing plant near Barnsley with government "ex coalfields" grant. The jobs were above average wage skilled employment, equivalent or more than a miner would have earnt and in a lot better working conditions.

The guy behind it wanted to employ ex miners and that was how he got grant assistance. His experience was firstly it was very difficult to recruit sufficient local people, despite the then high levels of unemployment and when he did get them there were many instances of them not staying the course over a decade, he ended up with a workforce that was roughly 60% local and 40% immigrant. Not because he was paying below average wages, but simply because he couldn't recruit enough good quality local people.

Now one anecdotal example doesn't prove a rule, but a look at the demographic of the UK, will show an increasingly ageing population and a shrinking workforce, where exactly are employers going to be recruiting their workforce from?

A couple of years ago I was travelling in Scotland and one thing I noted was that most of the hotels were managed and staffed by EU migrants, even in the Highlands and North, why? One would ahve thought that local people would be crying out for these jobs, but no I was told it was difficult to recruit and more importantly retain locals for such work.

The fact is the Uk has a reducing pool of labour, those within the labour market have better education and more choice and are prepared to move elsewhere to get a job they want. Those left composes of people who for various reasons are not attractive to employers or simply don't want to work.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Ageing population, shrinking workforce and birthrate. Tick. Which is why the Germans, with ruthless efficiency encouraged significant Turkish immigration a long ago as 25 years or more back and cherry picked the best/youngest/fittest of refugees from the middle east in the last 5-10 years. If addressed properly, and as part of a broad philosophy, the use of migrant workforce can be very beneficial.

Sure it stresses the education and healthcare infrastructures, creates disharmony and tension etc, but at a policy level it makes sense to ensure future pensioners will have a state pension.

[Andy_Faber]

Sure it stresses the education and healthcare infrastructures

...which is a point I've tried and failed to make a few times years ago on this very thread. Not wanting to out-anecdote Swale but I have two close friends who quit NHS for that reason (pre-Covid, and to their credit they have both rejoined the fray recently)

[swaledale]

Ageing population, shrinking workforce and birthrate. Tick. Which is why the Germans, with ruthless efficiency encouraged significant Turkish immigration a long ago as 25 years or more back and cherry picked the best/youngest/fittest of refugees from the middle east in the last 5-10 years. If addressed properly, and as part of a broad philosophy, the use of migrant workforce can be very beneficial.

Sure it stresses the education and healthcare infrastructures, creates disharmony and tension etc, but at a policy level it makes sense to ensure future pensioners will have a state pension.

Well does it though? I mean normal population growth, i.e. when the citizens of the Uk produced more than 1.4 children per family also meant planning for increased capacity in health care and education etc. Governments were supposed to plan for these things - in the last decade the reverse has happened, Government has cut resources for these and other essential public services, resulting in the stresses and strains you mention and then blamed it on uncontrolled (not that it was uncontrolled but thats another story) EU immigration.

Of course if you live in a world where your rich enough to access private healthcare and education then such things don't enter ones consciousness!

Its not just the state pension, its paying for education and healthcare etc etc from the taxes these immigrant workers pay. That has a wider effect on the economy, which means private pensions and savings are also threatened.

[Andy_Faber]

Of course if you live in a world where your rich enough to access private healthcare and education then such things don't enter ones consciousness!

Wrong and a demonstration of how big and how opaque your blinkers are.

Edit: and associating being 'rich' with having access to private healthcare is just plain deluded, I had PH through the company I joined from college at around £3 per week (my contribution), I had PH before I had a colour TV. Millions of people benefit from the same benefit and if you called them rich they'd laugh at you. If you want a discussion on the other issue bring it on but you are justy plain wrong on healthcare its not even up for discussion

[ramAnag]

Wrong and a demonstration of how big and how opaque your blinkers are.

Edit: and associating being 'rich' with having access to private healthcare is just plain deluded, I had PH through the company I joined from college at around £3 per week (my contribution), I had PH before I had a colour TV. Millions of people benefit from the same benefit and if you called them rich they'd laugh at you. If you want a discussion on the other issue bring it on but you are justy plain wrong on healthcare its not even up for discussion

Strictly speaking you may be right, Andy...but in the grand scheme of things there can be little doubt that there is a correlation between being well off and being able to afford private healthcare and private education.

I’d suggest you displayed unusual foresight in putting private health care before the acquisition of colour TV and good for you...but you aren’t typical and you were fortunate in joining a company that offered PH...most don’t.

[Andy_Faber]

Strictly speaking you may be right, Andy...but in the grand scheme of things there can be little doubt that there is a correlation between being well off and being able to afford private healthcare and private education.

I’d suggest you displayed unusual foresight in putting private health care before the acquisition of colour TV and good for you...but you aren’t typical and you were fortunate in joining a company that offered PH...most don’t.

No clever foresight on my part rA, it was after a discussion on my first day at work with the office PA (secretary in those days) Margaret, the first adult I ever fancied, and to be honest if she'd suggested I give the £3 to a chicken sanctuary I probably would have. Glad she suggested PH though

My point wasn't quite what you were responding to though, Swale was suggesting in his highly charged way that PH = 'rich' = daily baths in goats milk served by virgin handmaidens = out of touch, which is absolutely not the case - recognising that those who have it are in general more privileged than thos who don't

[ramAnag]

No clever foresight on my part rA, it was after a discussion on my first day at work with the office PA (secretary in those days) Margaret, the first adult I ever fancied, and to be honest if she'd suggested I give the £3 to a chicken sanctuary I probably would have. Glad she suggested PH though

My point wasn't quite what you were responding to though, Swale was suggesting in his highly charged way that PH = 'rich' = daily baths in goats milk served by virgin handmaidens = out of touch, which is absolutely not the case - recognising that those who have it are in general more privileged than thos who don't

Can’t help feeling that’s entirely your interpretation, AF.

Swale just used the word ‘rich’. It’s all relative and he perhaps would have been more accurate to say ‘comfortable’ or ‘well off’.

Anecdotally...I have four kids...the two who are wealthiest, as a result of the industries they have chosen to work in, are also ‘privileged’ to benefit from company provided private health care. The two who are less well remunerated, but have perfectly good and respectable jobs, have no such advantages.

It is a simple fact of life that the better off you are the more likely you are to be receive or be able to afford private education and healthcare and there’s no point in pretending otherwise. Whether it’s always worth it is a different question.

[Geoff Parkstone]

An interesting interpretation rA and not one I agree with. I've been self employed for over 25 years and have always bought PHI - even before diagnosed as diabetic. I haven't had a holiday in 6 years, I don't have a football season ticket, I rarely drink, don't smoke. I have to fund my own pension. I chose where to spend my finite financial resource on what is important to me.

So to be accused of being rich because I have PHI is as daft as calling you rich because you go on holiday several times a year (in normal conditions) or have a derby season ticket.

[ramAnag]

An interesting interpretation rA and not one I agree with. I've been self employed for over 25 years and have always bought PHI - even before diagnosed as diabetic. I haven't had a holiday in 6 years, I don't have a football season ticket, I rarely drink, don't smoke. I have to fund my own pension. I chose where to spend my finite financial resource on what is important to me.

So to be accused of being rich because I have PHI is as daft as calling you rich because you go on holiday several times a year (in normal conditions) or have a derby season ticket.

I didn’t use the word ‘rich’...I just observed that those who benefited from PHI and private (public) schooling were likely to be amongst the better, more ‘comfortably’ off.

I doubt that you not going on holiday for six years has anything to do with not being able to afford to, but you’re right, we all make choices as regards how to spend our ‘finite financial resources’. I, and by implication Swale, are also right...those who are wealthier or in more prestigious employment are more likely to benefit from PHI and private education.