O/T. The Government's handling of Covid

[Andy_Faber]

Does kind of illustrate a point about democracy though. I’m, allegedly, educated (to post graduate level) and relatively intelligent (debatable...I know) and I still don’t really get it. More complex numeracy is, as you know, not one of my strengths, in the same way as I might argue that morality and sensitivity aren’t yours. If that’s true of us then was there really any chance of the proletariat/electorate voting intelligently and with an informed voice over Brexit?

I made a similar point way back in the Brexit thread - as I recall I mentioned that a number of folk on my Facebook friends list asked me, as a known ‘clever tw@t’’ how they could make an informed decision and I responded that was no way of doing so on such a complex issue. I suggested they read up as much as they could on the single subject that mattered most to them and voted on that basis

[ramAnag]

I made a similar point way back in the Brexit thread - as I recall I mentioned that a number of folk on my Facebook friends list asked me, as a known ‘clever tw@t’’ how they could make an informed decision and I responded that was no way of doing so on such a complex issue. I suggested they read up as much as they could on the single subject that mattered most to them and voted on that basis

So, and this isn’t an attempt at discrediting THE Referendum...was there any point?

[Andy_Faber]

So, and this isn’t an attempt at discrediting THE Referendum...was there any point?

Many. Amongst which, The (slim) silent majority found their voice and the ‘powers that be’ at last realised that if they went too far, the ‘idiots’ would f@ck em over good and proper, regardless of party allegiance. Happened to the conservatives, happened to labour, happened to EU, indirectly it happened to the cosyness that was Obama politics

[swaledale]

Many. Amongst which, The (slim) silent majority found their voice and the ‘powers that be’ at last realised that if they went too far, the ‘idiots’ would f@ck em over good and proper, regardless of party allegiance. Happened to the conservatives, happened to labour, happened to EU, indirectly it happened to the cosyness that was Obama politics

Thats not true though is it? I mean 37% of the electorate who actually voted for Brexit isn't a majority silent or otherwise and with Brexit, its the idiots that have been ****ed, over by the real elite that is ex pat multi billionaires who are looking for a low tax light touch regulation economy to make more money and exploit the useful idiots even more.

In fact one could argue the "powers that be" certainly those of a right of centre persuasion have realised both in the UK and the USA that there are sufficient "useful idiots" out there who can be conned quite simply by telling them what they want to hear, rather than what they need to hear so that the "powers that be" can "go to far" as you put it.

So far from the silent majority finding their voice, they have actually been silenced whilst politics and good the governance of the country is in the hands of incompetent self serving fools.

[ramAnag]

Many. Amongst which, The (slim) silent majority found their voice and the ‘powers that be’ at last realised that if they went too far, the ‘idiots’ would f@ck em over good and proper, regardless of party allegiance. Happened to the conservatives, happened to labour, happened to EU, indirectly it happened to the cosyness that was Obama politics

And you call me idealistic!
You’ve recognised that the vast majority of the electorate had insufficient knowledge to offer an informed opinion/vote but now claim that the ‘silent majority’ - aka in this case actual minority - ‘found their voice’.
You make it sound almost heroic, but as has been pointed out...that just isn’t true.
I won’t use the emotive and self defeating term ‘idiots’ but, substituting some combination of the words, naive, gullible, misguided, easily led and prejudiced, Swale is spot on...all that has happened is that we are more isolated than at any time in living memory and we have indeed surrendered governance of this country into ‘the hands of incompetent self serving fools’.

[Andy_Faber]

And you call me idealistic!
You’ve recognised that the vast majority of the electorate had insufficient knowledge to offer an informed opinion/vote but now claim that the ‘silent majority’ - aka in this case actual minority - ‘found their voice’.
You make it sound almost heroic, but as has been pointed out...that just isn’t true.
I won’t use the emotive and self defeating term ‘idiots’ but, substituting some combination of the words, naive, gullible, misguided, easily led and prejudiced, Swale is spot on...all that has happened is that we are more isolated than at any time in living memory and we have indeed surrendered governance of this country into ‘the hands of incompetent self serving fools’.

As you might guess, I don't agree

The vast majority of the electorate DID have sufficient knowledge to offer an informed opinion, that knowledge was that the issues and potential outcomes hadn't been made clear and based on that their opinion SHOULD have been 'The issues and outcomes aren't clear enough, therefore I will vote for the status quo'.

HOWEVER, such rationality never came into it. The population were given a vote and did with it what they wished

some of your descriptions of those who voted (in both directions) may be accurate (certainly more so than Lord Swale's bile) but you clearly didn't/don't get out enough to realise there was (and still is) a genuine unrest with 'the way things are' amongst what is still the biggest demographic group in the country, who, not wanting to go on wrecking sprees such as we saw last year, see their 'moment' as being at the ballot box not, for instance, Bristol Harbour.

[ramAnag]

As you might guess, I don't agree

The vast majority of the electorate DID have sufficient knowledge to offer an informed opinion, that knowledge was that the issues and potential outcomes hadn't been made clear and based on that their opinion SHOULD have been 'The issues and outcomes aren't clear enough, therefore I will vote for the status quo'.

HOWEVER, such rationality never came into it. The population were given a vote and did with it what they wished

some of your descriptions of those who voted (in both directions) may be accurate (certainly more so than Lord Swale's bile) but you clearly didn't/don't get out enough to realise there was (and still is) a genuine unrest with 'the way things are' amongst what is still the biggest demographic group in the country, who, not wanting to go on wrecking sprees such as we saw last year, see their 'moment' as being at the ballot box not, for instance, Bristol Harbour.

Oh, I get out enough, AF. Probably just mix in different circles.
I’m still trying to reconcile your point of a few posts ago...when you described people coming to you to find out how to find out more, with the statement... ‘the vast majority of the population DID have sufficient knowledge’.
Clearly, if they were coming to you to ask how to find out more, they didn’t have sufficient knowledge and I doubt that the a large proportion of those who voted for Brexit would have been found within your peer group anyway.

As regards Bristol Harbour...if you really want to confuse two distinct political campaign groups...let’s not pretend that the post Referendum behaviour of certain victorious Brexiteers was acceptable either. It also had nothing whatsoever to do with the ballot box.

[Andy_Faber]

Oh, I get out enough, AF. Probably just mix in different circles.
I’m still trying to reconcile your point of a few posts ago...when you described people coming to you to find out how to find out more, with the statement... ‘the vast majority of the population DID have sufficient knowledge’.
Clearly, if they were coming to you to ask how to find out more, they didn’t have sufficient knowledge and I doubt that the a large proportion of those who voted for Brexit would have been found within your peer group anyway.

As regards Bristol Harbour...if you really want to confuse two distinct political campaign groups...let’s not pretend that the post Referendum behaviour of certain victorious Brexiteers was acceptable either. It also had nothing whatsoever to do with the ballot box.

I mix in many circles rA, see below, 'peer group'

My two comments are consistent. The former referred to a few people (I'm trying hard not to be elitest with this comment, bear with me and see also below) who maybe didn't have the intellect, the awareness or the time to make a positive decision about which way to vote BUT wanted to make a positive decision.
the latter was referring to the population as a whole. I'm a patient bloke, prepared to share what insight I have, but I'm not Martin bloody Lewis

My 'peer' group is a strange one - a small circle of close friends in roughly my social 'stratum' and thousands of folk I meet through my hobby interest who are significantly more (to use the antiquated phrase) 'working class'. Their world-view is very different to mine, and spending many a friday night between bands listening to them hold court (and watching them drink, Jeeez) had been an education to me. I only know for certain of two that voted Remain in the latter group

Regarding the 'post Referendum behaviour of certain victorious Brexiteers' please elaborate

[Andy_Faber]

we have indeed surrendered governance of this country into ‘the hands of incompetent self serving fools’.

And thats just a silly, bitter comment that I would expect Lord Swale to make but not you to endorse - logically, the Brexit result would have been delivered for the same 'hands' whichever way it went so in that respect it was a net nil outcome

[Trickytreesreds]

And you call me idealistic!
You’ve recognised that the vast majority of the electorate had insufficient knowledge to offer an informed opinion/vote but now claim that the ‘silent majority’ - aka in this case actual minority - ‘found their voice’.
You make it sound almost heroic, but as has been pointed out...that just isn’t true.
I won’t use the emotive and self defeating term ‘idiots’ but, substituting some combination of the words, naive, gullible, misguided, easily led and prejudiced, Swale is spot on...all that has happened is that we are more isolated than at any time in living memory and we have indeed surrendered governance of this country into ‘the hands of incompetent self serving fools’.

Again RA missed off the history of it all.
1. We joined an economic community
2. We have had the ever expanding EU forced on us. Lisbon treaty was not asked of us.
3. The EU is slowly morphing into the USE and your "governance" as you call it. Will be run by unelected, immovable fools.
OUR FOOLS CAN BE DUMPED AT A BALLOT BOX.

QED