O/T. The Government's handling of Covid

[Trickytreesreds]

I’m going to ignore your tedious and overused taunts about my self confessed mathematical limitations, save to compare them with your apparent similar shortage of common sense, and move on.

To the best of my knowledge there is no rule or law (yet) telling me that I have to respect the philosophy of Brexit...and yet in everything I have done since Brexit (and Covid) I have complied with all the relevant rules...eg stood in stupidly, and previously unnecessarily, long queues to have my passport stamped in a way that hasn’t previously been necessary since the seventies.

In respect of being governed by ‘rules and laws in all sorts of ways’ and Tricky’s suggestion that you can’t tell people what to do, let’s look at a couple of examples.
He doesn’t like the obvious analogy with smoking in public so let’s look elsewhere.
When I was at college back in the ‘70’s I used to enjoy smoking cannabis and dabbled a little with other ‘soft’ drugs. I was fully aware that if I was ever caught it would automatically spell the end of any future teaching career. As it was, a couple of very close calls apart, I got away with it, but the law told me I couldn’t smoke dope (even though I still believe it to be less harmful than nicotine and alcohol) and the rules told me that if I got caught I’d be chucked off any teaching course.

Likewise, and I’ll endeavour to find one more applicable to our ‘red’ friend, TTR likes to drive fast and has, I believe, a new and quite powerful BMW.
It’s probably capable of speeds well in excess of twice the legal limit in this country. I’m not entirely certain what the point of that is, but each to their own and I do recognise the pleasure in being able to accelerate quickly etc.
Unfortunately for fans of such big engined speed mobiles the law of this country is that we can drive no faster than 70 mph. Doubtless Tricky, and indeed I do the same, will have broken the speed limit on numerous occasions and yet he knows that if he is caught using his car’s full capabilities he runs the risk of a ban, a fine, or even something more extreme. Another remarkably basic example of how we are told what to do and how this moderates our behaviour.

There are literally thousands more examples but I hope being told you can’t smoke cannabis or drive your car at the speeds it is potentially capable of would make the point that you can indeed tell people what to do and what not to do...and we regularly do.

I'm a bit puzzled by that one RA?

Any modern day motor is capable of breaking the law speed limit wise. 20/30/40/50/60/70 take your pick.
So in effect, I could own a 70 bhp machine or a 700 bhp machine,what's the difference?
The point is, if you was to apply your COVID analogy to it, then all cars would be restricted and anyone who doesn't would have their license removed.

Now having a full power bike license, I know this already happens in that set up. For me, when learning, I was limited to a 35kw machine. Still could have broke the speed limit, but it was slow progress getting there.
Now the EU, is trying to have all new cars limited by a governor, that automatically limits the car to a speed limit. Again, this dodgy ground with human rights AND actually Health and Safety.

Now you and your Canabis thing is open to debate. You KNEW the risks whilst doing it. You KNEW it could cost you your job before getting it.
I think pretty much any employer would have the same ruling.
But look at it like this. Teaching had never had anyone smoking pot, then someone said, you all have to smoke pot now, as it's good for your mental heath(it isn't but just suppose).
Now you may have been delariously happy with that, but some, who have never smoked before wouldn't be, for many reasons.
Health/ hate the smell/ religion/ bad example for kids on so on.

It is never clear cut and minute YOU (officials) decide what the joe public can /cannot/ is doing opens up all sorts.

Look I'll say no more. I think this **** storm is just starting when Human rights are infringed. We currently have an under staffed NHS/Care sector.
Moralistically or not, can you honestly believe they are going to sack thousands?

Good clean debate this by the way.

[ramAnag]

Okay...moving on.
I’m a little in limbo at the moment for reasons that may become apparent but two recent events have provided food for thought.

A week or so ago I was talking to a much younger friend of mine who is a selected ‘first responder’. He was recently called to an elderly lady in her nineties who had hurt herself as a result of a fall in her bathroom in a Derbyshire village about five miles from Derby. He rang for an ambulance and was informed that the waiting time would be ‘up to nine hours’!

Last night I had the misfortune to have to use the German emergency services for someone very close to me. The ambulance arrived within ten minutes. Initial diagnosis was made and the person concerned was in hospital and being treated within another half hour.
Fortunately the relevant EHIC does not expire till early 2023 and, despite us having left the EU, there was no reluctance on the part of the Germans to accept it.

It honestly gives me no pleasure to say this and I know it’s more about the NHS than Covid itself, but...compare and contrast. Is this the state of Brirain today and a reflection of how far we have fallen in recent years?

[Andy_Faber]

Andy, I’m sorry...that’s nonsense. You know as well as I do that I have never used the word ‘underclass’ as a ‘coverall’ for those who fail to comply.

I was really referring to society in general rather than your own views, and more to 'hard to reach' than 'underclass'. I think for the vast majority of what you and Swale call hard to reach I think most folk would categorise as 'hard to convince'.

[ramAnag]

I was really referring to society in general rather than your own views, and more to 'hard to reach' than 'underclass'. I think for the vast majority of what you and Swale call hard to reach I think most folk would categorise as 'hard to convince'.

So far from ‘so nebulous as to be meaningless’ then...as you began by stating. Just a tiny semantic difference.

[Andy_Faber]

Okay...moving on.
I’m a little in limbo at the moment for reasons that may become apparent but two recent events have provided food for thought.

A week or so ago I was talking to a much younger friend of mine who is a selected ‘first responder’. He was recently called to an elderly lady in her nineties who had hurt herself as a result of a fall in her bathroom in a Derbyshire village about five miles from Derby. He rang for an ambulance and was informed that the waiting time would be ‘up to nine hours’!

Last night I had the misfortune to have to use the German emergency services for someone very close to me. The ambulance arrived within ten minutes. Initial diagnosis was made and the person concerned was in hospital and being treated within another half hour.
Fortunately the relevant EHIC does not expire till early 2023 and, despite us having left the EU, there was no reluctance on the part of the Germans to accept it.

It honestly gives me no pleasure to say this and I know it’s more about the NHS than Covid itself, but...compare and contrast. Is this the state of Brirain today and a reflection of how far we have fallen in recent years?

It may do, but for every tit there is a tat - Germany is a greater user of the bad boy of fossil fuels,coal, than UK, and has deteriorated badly since their renewable peak of 2018.

Also, having watched the 'Ambulance' programme on TV, its neither about Covid nor NHS, but the brittle, misguided UKpopulace, which may actually support the implication of your closing question

[ramAnag]

I'm a bit puzzled by that one RA?

Any modern day motor is capable of breaking the law speed limit wise. 20/30/40/50/60/70 take your pick.
So in effect, I could own a 70 bhp machine or a 700 bhp machine,what's the difference?
The point is, if you was to apply your COVID analogy to it, then all cars would be restricted and anyone who doesn't would have their license removed.

Now having a full power bike license, I know this already happens in that set up. For me, when learning, I was limited to a 35kw machine. Still could have broke the speed limit, but it was slow progress getting there.
Now the EU, is trying to have all new cars limited by a governor, that automatically limits the car to a speed limit. Again, this dodgy ground with human rights AND actually Health and Safety.

Now you and your Canabis thing is open to debate. You KNEW the risks whilst doing it. You KNEW it could cost you your job before getting it.
I think pretty much any employer would have the same ruling.
But look at it like this. Teaching had never had anyone smoking pot, then someone said, you all have to smoke pot now, as it's good for your mental heath(it isn't but just suppose).
Now you may have been delariously happy with that, but some, who have never smoked before wouldn't be, for many reasons.
Health/ hate the smell/ religion/ bad example for kids on so on.

It is never clear cut and minute YOU (officials) decide what the joe public can /cannot/ is doing opens up all sorts.

Look I'll say no more. I think this **** storm is just starting when Human rights are infringed. We currently have an under staffed NHS/Care sector.
Moralistically or not, can you honestly believe they are going to sack thousands?

Good clean debate this by the way.

The only point was, and is, Tricky...there ARE rules that tell us how to behave and if those are extended to the need to be vaccinated with restrictions on how those who haven’t can behave, it will hardly be unprecedented.

[ramAnag]

It may do, but for every tit there is a tat - Germany is a greater user of the bad boy of fossil fuels,coal, than UK, and has deteriorated badly since their renewable peak of 2018.

Also, having watched the 'Ambulance' programme on TV, its neither about Covid nor NHS, but the brittle, misguided UKpopulace, which may actually support the implication of your closing question

Jeez...only you, these days, could bring fossil fuels into an observation about the emergency services in two different countries.

[swaledale]

I'll accept most of that, maybe my issue is the overuse of both phrases as a coverall for those who fail/choose not to comply. You're right that we 'fat and happy' can't necessarily conceive the difficulties/issues, but many of those within the categories you list somehow aren't that difficult to reach whan it comes to working the benefits system.

To be inclusive on my criticism I'll actually call fire on a category I AM part of (but you didn't list), 'religious' communities. Anyone finding excuse in the words of the religion I follow to avoid vaccination need a straightener IMO, and there are some round the edges. Looking more widely, and its only an anecdote, on (of all things) ITV's Loose women last week, one of the panellists, an uncommitted Muslim, not only said she would have taken the vaccine even if it had included pork products, but her devout mother would have as well, believing (I paraphrase) thather God would accept she would be better alive than dead. Fair play to them

As ab atheist, I actually have some sympathy with those who have a strict adherence to their religion and follow whatever their religious leader says. The way forward is engagement, communication and gaining trust, rather than intolerance?

Surprised as a self professed member of the religious community that tolerance and understanding of foolish or misguided beliefs isn't something your advocating.

As for the benefit myth - some figures - £18 billion unclaimed benefits annually, £1.3 billion fraud, £ billion payment error either by officials or clamant which is mostly reclaimed, £70 billion tax fraud.

I'm not supporting any fraud, but have a wee bit more sympathy with someone in poverty gaming the system than someone with a reasonable income doing so. Yet the right wing of politics focusses on the latter and reinforces this belief amongst people that a large majority of people claiming benefits are doing so fraudulently. They aren't and the bigger loss to the Uk economy is tax fraud.

[Andy_Faber]

As for the benefit myth - some figures - £18 billion unclaimed benefits annually, £1.3 billion fraud, £ billion payment error either by officials or clamant which is mostly reclaimed, £70 billion tax fraud.

I'm not supporting any fraud, but have a wee bit more sympathy with someone in poverty gaming the system than someone with a reasonable income doing so. Yet the right wing of politics focusses on the latter and reinforces this belief amongst people that a large majority of people claiming benefits are doing so fraudulently. They aren't and the bigger loss to the Uk economy is tax fraud.

Sorry I don't understand the relevance of your last two paragraphs at all. I must have voted Brexit

Edit, I think you think that mean defrauding. No,I just meant exploiting it to its full extent.

[ramAnag]

Sorry I don't understand the relevance of your last two paragraphs at all. I must have voted Brexit

What’s going on, AF? Are you on some sort of permanent wind up? It was you who, earlier today (#2234) drew a link between the poor - the ‘underclass’ - and benefit fraud. Anyone else will understand that that’s what Swale was talking about. Far harder to understand is you bringing coal into a comment about the comparative emergency services of two different countries.