O/T:- Vaccines: Pro/Anti & Conspiracy Theories [Originally Covid Pass and Meadow Ln.]

[macstop]

From all the published statistical information it is extremely clear that the vaccines 'work' to varying levels in different groups of people. For example it would be extremely difficult to argue that they don't work against mortality from Covid-19 when just 1.2% of the deaths from the disease in England for the first half of 2021 were fully vaccinated individuals. ( I appreciate that in the timescale of this pandemic that is months out of date but it is a figure taken from strong and well reviewed data.)

Obviously that old chestnut that 'you can say anything you like using statistics' makes us all very wary of such data. However, when the data is consistently in the same range from multiple sources in multiple countries on multiple continents it should become harder and harder to question. With the arrival of the newest widespread variant, Omicron, and future variants, the data will probably vary from that from previous variants but hopefully not by much.

While I, like most people, would never question an individual's right to make their own choices for their own health, I do question why people do so in the face of such overwhelming information contradicting their views. Of course, like everyone else on here, I've made my choices based in large part on my own belief system, not just on the available facts. Ultimately this is where the polarisation comes from. From where I stand on this (and I am clearly in the pro-vaccine camp, for clarity) I hope that everyone who is labelled a 'conspiracy theorist' and thrown in the bin by the other 'team', can perhaps be slowly convinced by solid data to get protected and protect others by use of the vaccines and other precautions such as mask-wearing. That is my stance but I don't hate the 'other side', that would be pointless and damaging.

Anti-vaccine folk calling pro-vaccine people 'sheep' etc. and pro-vaccine people in return calling them ' tinfoil-hat nutters' etc. isn't helping humanity. This polarisation in recent years on so many issues, from Brexit to Trump and now Covid-19, fuelled in a massive way by social media's echo-chamber algorithms, is probably public enemy number two after the coronavirus pandemic at number one in our current world. Sad and dangerous times. I hope we can avoid breaking up friendships and remain good to each other regardless of our disagreements.

I totally disagree with you Swale, but you will always remain a friend we really must get on with our lives no matter how long we have left imo

[Bernard_Bresslaw]

From all the published statistical information it is extremely clear that the vaccines 'work' to varying levels in different groups of people. For example it would be extremely difficult to argue that they don't work against mortality from Covid-19 when just 1.2% of the deaths from the disease in England for the first half of 2021 were fully vaccinated individuals. ( I appreciate that in the timescale of this pandemic that is months out of date but it is a figure taken from strong and well reviewed data.)

Obviously that old chestnut that 'you can say anything you like using statistics' makes us all very wary of such data. However, when the data is consistently in the same range from multiple sources in multiple countries on multiple continents it should become harder and harder to question. With the arrival of the newest widespread variant, Omicron, and future variants, the data will probably vary from that from previous variants but hopefully not by much.

While I, like most people, would never question an individual's right to make their own choices for their own health, I do question why people do so in the face of such overwhelming information contradicting their views. Of course, like everyone else on here, I've made my choices based in large part on my own belief system, not just on the available facts. Ultimately this is where the polarisation comes from. From where I stand on this (and I am clearly in the pro-vaccine camp, for clarity) I hope that everyone who is labelled a 'conspiracy theorist' and thrown in the bin by the other 'team', can perhaps be slowly convinced by solid data to get protected and protect others by use of the vaccines and other precautions such as mask-wearing. That is my stance but I don't hate the 'other side', that would be pointless and damaging.

Anti-vaccine folk calling pro-vaccine people 'sheep' etc. and pro-vaccine people in return calling them ' tinfoil-hat nutters' etc. isn't helping humanity. This polarisation in recent years on so many issues, from Brexit to Trump and now Covid-19, fuelled in a massive way by social media's echo-chamber algorithms, is probably public enemy number two after the coronavirus pandemic at number one in our current world. Sad and dangerous times. I hope we can avoid breaking up friendships and remain good to each other regardless of our disagreements.

Part of the problem is context of information. I hadn't heard the exact figure of 1.2% but I had seen something to that effect, also with hospital admissions. However that doesn't take into account that in England and Wales deaths in hospital in January and February 2021 alone totalled 31,885 (the total so far from March 2020 to date is around 105,000 as per wellknown conspiracy hotbed NHS England). By the first week in March 2021 a total of 729,000 2nd jabs had been given. This does not account for the 14 day period post 2nd jab. Hardly a massive surprise that the vaxxed percentage was so low. This clearly doesn't mean they don't work but the stat is almost meaningless. Why can't we just have an actual discussion of the numbers (not you personally Swale, obviously!).

Also if any group should be scapegoated it's people who spit a lot when they talk. Roy Hattersley should be interned for starters.

[jackal2]

While I, like most people, would never question an individual's right to make their own choices for their own health, I do question why people do so in the face of such overwhelming information contradicting their views. Of course, like everyone else on here, I've made my choices based in large part on my own belief system, not just on the available facts. Ultimately this is where the polarisation comes from. From where I stand on this (and I am clearly in the pro-vaccine camp, for clarity) I hope that everyone who is labelled a 'conspiracy theorist' and thrown in the bin by the other 'team', can perhaps be slowly convinced by solid data to get protected and protect others by use of the vaccines and other precautions such as mask-wearing. That is my stance but I don't hate the 'other side', that would be pointless and damaging.

Anti-vaccine folk calling pro-vaccine people 'sheep' etc. and pro-vaccine people in return calling them ' tinfoil-hat nutters' etc. isn't helping humanity. This polarisation in recent years on so many issues, from Brexit to Trump and now Covid-19, fuelled in a massive way by social media's echo-chamber algorithms, is probably public enemy number two after the coronavirus pandemic at number one in our current world. Sad and dangerous times. I hope we can avoid breaking up friendships and remain good to each other regardless of our disagreements.

I've literally just had my third vaccine so it's obvious that I'm in the pro-vaccine camp, but I totally respect the right of others to opt out if we're living in a free country. One of my mates is a vaccine-sceptic who hasn't had any doses, and we're still talking!

Social media definitely plays a part in exaggerating the debate, but I think the regular media aren't far behind. I commented way back at the start of this crisis that this would be a 'media event' just as much as a public health event, and it continues to be so. A lot of the reporting on Covid tends towards the melodramatic presentation of the worst case scenario and plays on people's worst fears, frankly because bad news sells much better than balanced news.

[i961pie]

I don’t really know what point you think you’re making in regard to obesity. Yes, overweight people are more prone to worse symptoms of Covid, just like they are with a whole range of diseases. Should they lose weight and try to have a healthier lifestyle? Of course they should. Does this have any relevance to vaccines ? No, of course not.

Passive smoking was identified as a major hazard to health. That’s why smoking was banned in public places. Quitting smoking and losing weight have been probably been the two main public health messages of the last 30 years. Vaccines along with sanitation have been the biggest public health success in human history.

Since the pandemic started this board has been refreshingly free of vaccine misinformation. I’ve never asked for messages to be deleted, but I think there’s a very good argument that anti vax nonsense shouldn’t be tolerated.

A wise man once said to me when someone argues a point without any real logic to back up what they are saying then it is pointless carrying on with the argument.

[nw6pie]

I've literally just had my third vaccine so it's obvious that I'm in the pro-vaccine camp, but I totally respect the right of others to opt out if we're living in a free country. One of my mates is a vaccine-sceptic who hasn't had any doses, and we're still talking!

Social media definitely plays a part in exaggerating the debate, but I think the regular media aren't far behind. I commented way back at the start of this crisis that this would be a 'media event' just as much as a public health event, and it continues to be so. A lot of the reporting on Covid tends towards the melodramatic presentation of the worst case scenario and plays on people's worst fears, frankly because bad news sells much better than balanced news.

The problem with the vaccine sceptics is that their decision doesn’t only impact them. If ICUs are full of unvaccinated COVID patients, that has a huge knock-on effect for others. If they really want to put a star on themselves (a sick act in itself), maybe it should be one saying “I refuse to take up a hospital bed for a hoax”.

Seeing idiots like Piers Corbyn whining about having to wear a lickle mask in public spaces does make you wonder what they would have been like in WWII: “No, I will not put that light out, warden, you can’t tell me what to do in my own home.”

Social media, so much to answer for.

[i961pie]

The problem with the vaccine sceptics is that their decision doesn’t only impact them. If ICUs are full of unvaccinated COVID patients, that has a huge knock-on effect for others. If they really want to put a star on themselves (a sick act in itself), maybe it should be one saying “I refuse to take up a hospital bed for a hoax”.

Seeing idiots like Piers Corbyn whining about having to wear a lickle mask in public spaces does make you wonder what they would have been like in WWII: “No, I will not put that light out, warden, you can’t tell me what to do in my own home.”

Social media, so much to answer for.

A paper bag over his head all the time would be better.

[cher1]

A wise man once said to me when someone argues a point without any real logic to back up what they are saying then it is pointless carrying on with the argument.

Guess you're right really.

The facts remain that vaccination, and particularly boosters, reduce the chance of transmission, infection, hospitalisation and death. And that is backed up with robust clinical evidence from across the world.

[upthemaggies]

Guess you're right really.

The facts remain that vaccination, and particularly boosters, reduce the chance of transmission, infection, hospitalisation and death. And that is backed up with robust clinical evidence from across the world.

Small numbers as it's early days but this is from Reuters.....

Most reported U.S. Omicron cases have hit the fully vaccinated -CDC

Dec 10 (Reuters) - Most of the 43 COVID-19 cases caused by the Omicron variant identified in the United States so far were in people who were fully vaccinated, and a third of them had received a booster dose, according to a U.S. report published on Friday.


https://www.reuters.com/world/us/mos...dc-2021-12-10/

[jackal2]

The problem with the vaccine sceptics is that their decision doesn’t only impact them. If ICUs are full of unvaccinated COVID patients, that has a huge knock-on effect for others.

True, but ultimately that's the cost of respecting and protecting people's freedom of choice. The Government is entitled to offer the strongest possible advice to the public to take the Covid booster (as I have), just as they strongly advise people not to smoke and drink too much because it puts their health at risk, but ultimately the decision must remain with the individual. Otherwise it's a slippery slope towards authoritarianism which - rightly or wrongly - is already an allegation being made against the Government in relation to some of the Covid restrictions.

[upthemaggies]

True, but ultimately that's the cost of respecting and protecting people's freedom of choice. The Government is entitled to offer the strongest possible advice to the public to take the Covid booster (as I have), just as they strongly advise people not to smoke and drink too much because it puts their health at risk, but ultimately the decision must remain with the individual. Otherwise it's a slippery slope towards authoritarianism which - rightly or wrongly - is already an allegation being made against the Government in relation to some of the Covid restrictions.

If we’re not allowed to call the government Nazis for stigmatising a minority of millions whilst step by step banning them from society and sacking them from their jobs and forcing them to declare their health status..... then I'm not quite sure how the left get to call people Nazis who’ve done none of that.