Should he stay...or should he go now?

[swaledale]

OK, just for you, and for diametrically opposite reasons I suspect. He should go now as (a) his job is done - ie Brexit and hopefully covid and (b) before he does any more damage to his party. If he is involved in more scandal even a half wit like Starmer (albeit best of a bad bunch) has a chance to win the next election.

Im surprised the "longer term rA" doesnt want him to limp on and cause further damage to his party in the same way Corbyn did to Labour

Is it alright to mention other parties or is this a one eyed topic again - perhaps the reason I first decided to leave this one alone

Bloody hell, if a QC like Starmer is a "half wit" whats Johnson? A 10th wit? I'd trust Starmer to make a better go of government than the Johnson.

As for Johnson - he hasn't done Brexit, at best hlaf done it and very badly. As for Covid, nothing he has done has made a difference and it may well be premature to be thinking its done and dusted.

[ramAnag]

Not semantics, just a fact on a per capita basis. I'll take a lesson on geography, some of these may not be Europe but on a per capita basis UK has a lower death rate than Bulgaria, Boznia/Herzegovina, Hungary, North Macedonia, Georgia, Moldova, Chechia, Croatia, Slovakia, Rumania, Lithuania, Slovenia, Poland, Latvia, Belgium, Italy and Ukraine and its actually 19th not 16th. Tragic as every death is, absolute numbers are irrelevant as a measure of success in managing the pandemic, size has to be recognised

You have a point. We do have the highest Covid figures in Europe, as I have always maintained, but not on a per capita basis as you correctly point out.
On the other hand most of the countries you mention are part of the old ‘Eastern Europe’. I haven’t checked your figures but perhaps if we consider those countries not on the list you have provided eg...Germany, France, Spain, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Ireland, Iceland, Portugal, Switzerland, Austria...i.e. virtually all the major Western European nations...you’ll recognise the need to abandon any complacency.

So...highest/greatest number of deaths related to Covid in Europe? Correct...but not on a per capita basis which, to my mind, remains hardly a cause for celebration.

[Andy_Faber]

You have a point. We do have the highest Covid figures in Europe, as I have always maintained, but not on a per capita basis as you correctly point out.
On the other hand most of the countries you mention are part of the old ‘Eastern Europe’. I haven’t checked your figures but perhaps if we consider those countries not on the list you have provided eg...Germany, France, Spain, Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Ireland, Iceland, Portugal, Switzerland, Austria...i.e. virtually all the major Western European nations...you’ll recognise the need to abandon any complacency.

So...highest/greatest number of deaths related to Covid in Europe? Correct...but not on a per capita basis which, to my mind, remains hardly a cause for celebration.

Not celebrating any of it RA, just clarifying. It’s a wider point as well, this discussion is just between (supposed) friends, but in the (supposed) professional media there is too much of this unfounded, out of context i fact checked stuff

[Geoff Parkstone]

Lets not lose sight of the fact that the UK has the 19th highest death rate per capita ATTRIBUTED to COVID. In making this assertion there is little consistency in what is and is not a COVID death. In many cases deaths amongst the elderly have been because COVID exacerbated pre existing conditions, and so one set of statistics might say its a "COVID death" and another may suggest the very same case is an "underlying conditions" death.

I guess in rArA Land the performance of North Macedonia would be considered majestic, with only a little under 8,500 deaths attributed to COVID, even though as a NM citizen you would have been almost twice as likely to have died of COVID than your British counterpart

When bashing a government/leader I suppose using the most bent out of shape statistic is the route that a charlatan (oops spin doctor) might take.

[ramAnag]

Not celebrating any of it RA, just clarifying. It’s a wider point as well, this discussion is just between (supposed) friends, but in the (supposed) professional media there is too much of this unfounded, out of context i fact checked stuff

It’s hardly unfounded, Andy...and you are resorting to semantics. We do have the HIGHEST Covid related death rate in Europe...that is a fact.

If you want to define WORST by associating it only on a per capita basis that’s a reasonable point, but when you do so by then having to compare us with largely Eastern European countries that have an ongoing history of being much less wealthy and established than ourselves you lose some of the credibility of you argument.

To be clear...we have the HIGHEST Covid related death rate in Europe...the seventh HIGHEST in the World and even on a strictly per capita basis we are amongst the WORST in Europe and the third WORST of the comparable old EU countries.

At a time when our beleaguered Prime Minister and his paralysed Government are constantly defending themselves by repeatedly saying ‘look how well we got you through the pandemic’ forgive me for thinking of this as yet another Johnson perpetuated myth.

P.S. rA rA land...LOL! But when was the last time we had to compare ourselves to ‘majestic’ North Macedonia and which bit of the above is a ‘bent out of shape statistic’, GP?

P.P.S. Seems there may not be any more Downing Street Parties anyway...they’ve all bu**ered off.

[Geoff Parkstone]

"It’s hardly unfounded, Andy...and you are resorting to semantics. We do have the HIGHEST Covid related death rate in Europe...that is a fact."

Absolutely false, non factual, lie, call it what you will. Go here https://www.statista.com/statistics/...n-inhabitants/ and click on far right column to sort by deaths per million of population.

We may have the highest NUMBER of deaths, but we do not have the highest death RATE which infers it is a "per..." figure.

Perhaps we do have the highest death rates of British people in Europe, by country, if you prefer to construct a statistic to fit your model?

[MadAmster]

Giving definitive figures is difficult. Total deaths will include some who would have died anyway from pre existing conditions. Totally correct. It will also include some who had pre existing conditions who had those conditions under total control thanks to medicine that enabled them to cycle thousands of miles a year and referee football matches who would not have died for years had it not been for Covid. It will also include some who only had Covid.

There are, to the best of my knowledge, no figures available of how many fall into each of the categories. There, like as not, never will be.

I would like to suggest we all stop being right fighters in this and accept that the UK has a high rate, whichever "explanation" you choose to use and that the total could have been lower if different decisions had been made and/or those decisions had been made earlier/later.

The reverse is also true.

We can't bring any of the dead back. All we can do is focus on making tomorrow and every day after that, that little bit better.

[ramAnag]

"It’s hardly unfounded, Andy...and you are resorting to semantics. We do have the HIGHEST Covid related death rate in Europe...that is a fact."

Absolutely false, non factual, lie, call it what you will. Go here https://www.statista.com/statistics/...n-inhabitants/ and click on far right column to sort by deaths per million of population.

We may have the highest NUMBER of deaths, but we do not have the highest death RATE which infers it is a "per..." figure.

Perhaps we do have the highest death rates of British people in Europe, by country, if you prefer to construct a statistic to fit your model?

I’m not constructing statistics, GP... I don’t have a ‘model’ and I genuinely wish it wasn’t as it is.

We can argue about rates, per capita and what constitutes a Covid related death for ever but here are the facts.

We have the highest Covid related death figures in Europe with 157,730 deaths. The nearest to us is Italy (147,734) while France have 131,852 and Germany (which has a significantly higher population) has 118,3334.

If you want to talk ‘death rates’, a fair correction on your part, yes...we do better, with such economic giants as Bulgaria, Hungary, Czechia, Croatia, Slovakia, Romania, Lithuania, Poland, Latvia, along with Belgium and Italy all having worse per million figures.

Either way, and this is my point...it’s not a great reflection on a Government which is constantly clapping itself on the back for how well it has handled the pandemic is it?

[Geoff Parkstone]

Im not sure quite how "economic giant status" - sarcasm noted - is relevant to covid death rates since low per capita death rates also occur in less economically advantaged places such as Namibia, Lebanon and Kosovo.

Yes we could have done better, others did. We made mistakes, in some cases acted too late, and arguably could have sustained lower death totals perhaps. But also bear in mind we have an average older population as well which will spike our numbers upwards.

My point is that you simply picked a number to support your argument, which is no way to win the debate, even in rArA Land. You have to test your argument against a statistical data set, not just leap on the first number that matches your desired outcome.

IMHO no-one can get an A rating in fighting an unknown pandemic, there were no rules to follow. No matter how much you think other major economic powers did better than us, no-one really did significantly better, nor adopted much different policies. So I'm sorry I cannot and will not accept the "Boris done bad" argument other than in a very minimal way.

I'd rate us maybe a B-/C+ overall on a scale of A to E where no-one gets an A. But that's using a measured data analytics approach rather than an emotional based politically driven motive!

[ramAnag]

Im not sure quite how "economic giant status" - sarcasm noted - is relevant to covid death rates since low per capita death rates also occur in less economically advantaged places such as Namibia, Lebanon and Kosovo.

Yes we could have done better, others did. We made mistakes, in some cases acted too late, and arguably could have sustained lower death totals perhaps. But also bear in mind we have an average older population as well which will spike our numbers upwards.

My point is that you simply picked a number to support your argument, which is no way to win the debate, even in rArA Land. You have to test your argument against a statistical data set, not just leap on the first number that matches your desired outcome.

IMHO no-one can get an A rating in fighting an unknown pandemic, there were no rules to follow. No matter how much you think other major economic powers did better than us, no-one really did significantly better, nor adopted much different policies. So I'm sorry I cannot and will not accept the "Boris done bad" argument other than in a very minimal way.

I'd rate us maybe a B-/C+ overall on a scale of A to E where no-one gets an A. But that's using a measured data analytics approach rather than an emotional based politically driven motive!

I think it’s not unreasonable to suppose that financially well off countries are in a better position to protect themselves against the various causes of various diseases than the poorer ones...although I accept that the USA seems to be doing its best to disprove this theory.

I didn’t in any way ‘pick a number’. The numbers are out there...157,730 was the total number of Covid related UK deaths earlier this afternoon...Fact. That was the highest number of such nation defined deaths reported throughout Europe also earlier this afternoon...Fact. It is higher than all the comparable EU/Western European nations...Fact.

There is no ‘emotional based politically driven motive’ in saying so. Where there is a ‘politically driven motive’ is in Johnson repeatedly avoiding questions about his own behaviour and ‘leadership’ by deflecting and entering self back slapping mode to tell us all how brilliantly he and his Government have handled the pandemic.

It’s not true. They did well as far as the vaccine roll out is concerned...B+ in your terms...but having the highest number of Covid related deaths in Europe is not at all good...D- if you like...and we haven’t even got into the other Covid related scandal yet. So ask yourself who’s being selective with the stats?