O/T:- Ukraine [Incorporating 'Congrats to Russia' thread]

[irishpete]

Saw yesterday on a News Channel that top Chinese officials told Putin not to invade Ukraine until the Olympics finished.

If this stops & Putin stays in charge, how will any Country ever trust a word he says again, to do absolutely any kind of dealings etc.. ?

[Maggie's Farm]

Serious upscale by attacking a nuclear power plant, It seems like Putin is trying to goad the west into this.

yes, I get the same impression.

[drillerpie]

how will any Country ever trust a word he says again, to do absolutely any kind of dealings etc.. ?

'We're not going to invade Ukraine, we're just doing military exercises'

'We didn't use chemical weapons to kill the guy in the UK, two FSB agents just went on holiday to look at a cathedral in his town'

'The anti aircraft missiles we have just delivered to our inexperienced proxy fighters didn't shoot down the passenger jet'

'We absolutely didn't invade Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, some men in green uniforms just appeared out of nowhere, so it's fine that we can be officially registered as mediators rather than participants in the Minsk accords'

That's just off the top of my head while I'm drinking my coffee, I'm sure I could think of more if input my mind to it.

Fact is nobody in their right mind would have been able to believe anything he has said for the last decade. The fact that so many people (left and right) who have a problem with NATO (fair enough) think that because he is anti-NATO he must be telling the truth (mental), has probably been a source of great amusement for him.

[BigFatPie]

I agree about the no fly zone - it's completely unrealistic. I know he's done well in encouraging more action from allies, but publicly asking for something there's no chance of getting slightly spoils the unified image the allies have created.

He's now revised it to asking for planes only - short of a no fly zone but quite a step up from providing anti-tank missiles. Thoughts?

I’ve not seen any evidence Starmer ever wanted a NFZ. I have a seen a lot of nonsense spread by Corbynites and Brexiters to deflect from their own previous support of Putin.

Having said that I think we’re inevitably going to reach a point where direct NATO action is unavoidable. Not there yet though.

[i961pie]

I’ve not seen any evidence Starmer ever wanted a NFZ. I have a seen a lot of nonsense spread by Corbynites and Brexiters to deflect from their own previous support of Putin.

Having said that I think we’re inevitably going to reach a point where direct NATO action is unavoidable. Not there yet though.

Weren't there any remainers among the Corbynites?

[BanjoPie]

Yes, let’s go for it, why should we be beaten, smash him…

You are as mentally deranged as Putin!

[Old_pie]

The fact that so many people (left and right) who have a problem with NATO (fair enough) think that because he is anti-NATO he must be telling the truth (mental), has probably been a source of great amusement for him.

What is "fair enough" to object about NATO? Did they force countries to join? History shows that there was resistance to former Eastern Bloc countries' applications.

Those who have a problem should at least familiarise themselves with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO

Of course Russia was upset, but where was the clamour to re-instate the Warsaw Pact?

Hungary and Czechoslovakians in the Czeck Republic have strong reasons to ask the West for protection.

Anyway if Putin succeeds in a full take over of Ukraine (otherwise known by some as Croatia ) he will have NATO on his doorstep. And he's going to find it very difficult and expensive, whether officially or otherwise, to maintain his grip on the country. As I heard on R4 the other day, countries are defined not by their shared past but by their shared vision of the future.

[kill_the_drum]

I’m way out of my comfort zone with all this, but something that I’ve heard a few times is that the Russians need to stop this from within. I’ve then been thinking about how this looks from a Russian perspective, and what the appetite would be to do something about it.
The closest I can compare it to is our invasion of Iraq. I was in my early 20’s and one of my best friends was sent out there with the Marines. We dropped bombs on the country, killing 1000’s of people, and lost a lot of servicemen. I remember people around me regularly saying ‘bomb the lot of them.’ People defending their villages were ‘terrorists’ not civilians. I appreciate many thousands protested, but many thousand also completely dehumanised what was happening, myself included. I just wanted my mate to come home safe.
And ultimately, why were we there? The argument for going was weak, and the weapons of mass destruction was BS. Other than protests, we did nothing as a nation to stop it.
So, back to the Russians, how are they going to do anything? They’re constantly streamed propaganda, and arrested if they speak out.
It seems that this can only play out the way Putin wants it. The question is, what is it that Putin wants?

[SaltySeaDog]

I’m way out of my comfort zone with all this, but something that I’ve heard a few times is that the Russians need to stop this from within. I’ve then been thinking about how this looks from a Russian perspective, and what the appetite would be to do something about it.
The closest I can compare it to is our invasion of Iraq. I was in my early 20’s and one of my best friends was sent out there with the Marines. We dropped bombs on the country, killing 1000’s of people, and lost a lot of servicemen. I remember people around me regularly saying ‘bomb the lot of them.’ People defending their villages were ‘terrorists’ not civilians. I appreciate many thousands protested, but many thousand also completely dehumanised what was happening, myself included. I just wanted my mate to come home safe.
And ultimately, why were we there? The argument for going was weak, and the weapons of mass destruction was BS. Other than protests, we did nothing as a nation to stop it.
So, back to the Russians, how are they going to do anything? They’re constantly streamed propaganda, and arrested if they speak out.
It seems that this can only play out the way Putin wants it. The question is, what is it that Putin wants?

Apparently people are calling family in Russia from Ukraine to tell them the situation, and they still don't believe them.

I agree. I wouldn't expect to see enough internal pressure from everyday Russians to cause Putin to pause.

[i961pie]

When the coffins pile up and when soldiers return home to tell their families what is really happening then the truth will prevail.
You can fool all of the people some of the time but you can't fool them ALL of the time.