OT perspective/ Ukraine/Russia

[swaledale]

Back on topic, I see there is much talk certainly amongst some journos, Jenkins in the Grauniad and Johnsons sister on LBC that the only way to end the war would be the cessation of Crimea and eastern Ukariane to Russia (Putin).

Don't you just love people who won't be affected saying what Ukraine should accept? Utter ****s both of them!

[ramAnag]

Back on topic, I see there is much talk certainly amongst some journos, Jenkins in the Grauniad and Johnsons sister on LBC that the only way to end the war would be the cessation of Crimea and eastern Ukariane to Russia (Putin).

Don't you just love people who won't be affected saying what Ukraine should accept? Utter ****s both of them!

In my opinion it has always been Putin’s intention to take territory east of the Dneiper and any targets further west have been a distraction...Putin’s muscle flexing and evidence of ‘look what I can do’.
There is a degree of logic in those actions as, both historically and more currently, the eastern areas of Ukraine are significantly more ‘pro-Russian’ than those further west.
I’m unsure of whether the journalists you refer to are advocating what Ukraine should accept or just describing the situation.
Either way, while there is some logic in what would effectively be the partitioning of Ukraine, it is the methodology that Putin has employed that is so terrifyingly reprehensible and wholly unacceptable.

[swaledale]

In my opinion it has always been Putin’s intention to take territory east of the Dneiper and any targets further west have been a distraction...Putin’s muscle flexing and evidence of ‘look what I can do’.
There is a degree of logic in those actions as, both historically and more currently, the eastern areas of Ukraine are significantly more ‘pro-Russian’ than those further west.
I’m unsure of whether the journalists you refer to are advocating what Ukraine should accept or just describing the situation.
Either way, while there is some logic in what would effectively be the partitioning of Ukraine, it is the methodology that Putin has employed that is so terrifyingly reprehensible and wholly unacceptable.

rA where's the logic? Crimea and Eastern Ukraine are part of the sovereign state of Ukraine, not Russia. if countries are permitted to absorb areas of other countries by force simply because they claim the majority of the population speaks the language or have roots in the country taking over, that sets a dangerous precedent world wide!

Jenkins advocated that as a solution in his article and R. Johnson said she quote "would be happy" if that resolved the situation. I take it from your comments you'd be "happy" if say the majority of residents on the Isle of Wight were of French origin and France took it over?

Its totally unacceptable, and an insult to the Ukrainians to even suggest such a thing, when the same journos would never subscribe to the same thing happening here.

But it seems we never learn from history, look how it turned out when Hitler was "permitted" to absorb areas of mostly German speaking countries!!

[Trickytreesreds]

Sudetenland - phase 1

[ramAnag]

rA where's the logic? Crimea and Eastern Ukraine are part of the sovereign state of Ukraine, not Russia. if countries are permitted to absorb areas of other countries by force simply because they claim the majority of the population speaks the language or have roots in the country taking over, that sets a dangerous precedent world wide!

Jenkins advocated that as a solution in his article and R. Johnson said she quote "would be happy" if that resolved the situation. I take it from your comments you'd be "happy" if say the majority of residents on the Isle of Wight were of French origin and France took it over?

Its totally unacceptable, and an insult to the Ukrainians to even suggest such a thing, when the same journos would never subscribe to the same thing happening here.

But it seems we never learn from history, look how it turned out when Hitler was "permitted" to absorb areas of mostly German speaking countries!!

Hang on Swale...I didn’t say I approved of Putin or the potential partitioning of Ukraine. I suggested that I recognised some degree of logic in an attempt at reclaiming a part of Ukraine which has an undeniably Russian influence/history and I can understand, to a small extent, Putin’s paranoia at the possibility of having NATO weapons pointed at Russia from an immediately adjacent country.

It was an attempt, on my part, to understand Putin’s motivation and not in any way a justification of his actions which I have already described as completely unacceptable.

[MadAmster]

.... but aren't there already 5 NATO countries who share a border with Russia?

[ramAnag]

.... but aren't there already 5 NATO countries who share a border with Russia?

Possibly not as strategically ‘well’ placed as Ukraine but a good point well made.

[swaledale]

.... but aren't there already 5 NATO countries who share a border with Russia?

Yes and ironically he has achieved the opposite of what he may have intended, I say may have because all the indications are that Putin is not exactly behaving rationally, so its impossible to say why he has done what he has.

Clearly how ever its gone very wrong for him, NATO which was fractured has unified and bolstered forces in those countries next to Russia. The EU, amazingly has been united, when he wanted it to break up, Germany has woken up to the fact that it needs to defend itself and France got it all wrong, even down to not believing he would invade!

Economically Russia has shot itself in the foot and eventually when the Russian troops get back and the truth about what has happened spreads, Putin will be very vulnerable.

rA I wasn't saying you agreed, but you did seem to excuse the Journos who were expressing views like "I'd be happy" and partition or seceding territory is inevitable for Ukraine. Such people would be wise to remain silent.

But then suddenly all those who were "experts" on Covid, suddenly were experts on Russia, I guess they get paid to write or talk *******s but not helpful IMO.

[crashbang]

Russia backed into a corner.
Now saying . we can not only nuke Ukraine, but the entire planet.
The best form of defence is attack.

[ramAnag]

But then suddenly all those who were "experts" on Covid, suddenly were experts on Russia, I guess they get paid to write or talk *******s but not helpful IMO.

Point taken and accepted.