O/T:- Ukraine [Incorporating 'Congrats to Russia' thread]

[SwalePie]

The posters on here who have historically been sympathetic to Putin and his way of doing things, in the face of overwhelming logical and ethical reasons not to be, could probably answer this better than I can.

But I'll have a go a anyway, based on conversations I've had and what people I know have written on social media.

The intellectual left has had a soft spot for anything Soviet since the coup that brought them to power, partly through sympathy for its aims, partly because they thought it was the only force strong enough to defeat fascism / Nazism.

Cambridge University was a fertile recruiting ground for Soviet spies, the left-wing intelligentsia refused to acknowledge Stalin's terror, and so on. This carried on through the decades, and they eventually swapped in NATO instead of fascism as the evil to be defeated.

The right on the other hand, including the far right, was ideologically opposed to Russia throughout the Cold War, but the change from communist government to apolitical autocratic rule in Russia, with the recent rise of an anti-establishment right in the West, has meant they can now align with Russia comfortably.

I think the left sees in Putin an anti-Western figure to rally round, and by cheering him on they feel like they are opposing the things they don't like about the West, like capitalism, NATO, cultural imperialism, fascism etc.

The mental gymnastics it takes to choose someone like Putin as this figure - a man who has concentrated vast amounts of Russian wealth in the hands of himself and his inner circle while keeping his people in poverty (just look at the Russian soldiers now pillaging Ukraine and calling home to say they have discovered a land of plenty, where people have electrical appliances and "all the houses are made of bricks"), who has imperial ambitions of territorial expansion, and who has created a nationalistic and militaristic national mindset closer to actual Nazism than anything we've seen since WW2, is obviously alarming, but it is what it is.

The anti-establishment right, on the other hand, sees a white, unashamedly Christian (in terms of symbolism and rhetoric at least), unapologetically traditional (almost to the point of reviving the medeival fiefdom/serfs model), 'strong leader' who is the opposite of the archetypal puny, indecisive Western beta cuck leader. This is partly due to the amounts of Russian money spent backing the anti-establishment right in Western countries, and partly due to disillusionment with liberal Western society.

The thing that unites them both is the mistrust of Western society, particularly Western institutions and official news sources. To borrow from another thread, how can you trust a society or institutions that tell you a man winning a female swimming race is perfectly normal? I don't know, but I do know that the answer won't be found on Russia Today, (Iranian state) Press TV, Chinese state media, or one of the many disreputable news sources that were either set up deliberately to misinform, or have fallen prey to audience capture.


It's saddening for me to see these people, on both the left and the right, turn a blind eye to the absolute horror unfolding in Ukraine, on the basis that the alternative isn't perfect. Sometimes you have to choose between bad and less bad, and if nobody stops Putin I think we might all have to make some very real choices soon.

This! ^

[keldsyke]

Anyone else think that the US are downplaying the chemical weapons claim to avoid involvement?

[BigFatPie]

Thanks Driller I missed your reply the other day, but it seems to answer my question very well.

[Jampie]

Anyone else think that the US are downplaying the chemical weapons claim to avoid involvement?

Not really. There isn't any evidence other than social media claims, and yet they've acknowledged the report and said they're looking into it.

[KintoreMagpie]

Self isolating so I have finally had chance to start watching the World at War documentaries which I recorded end of last year. Tough watch so I am doing it bit by bit. Just watched an episode called Red Star which charts the amazing resistance of the Russian people against the Germans who were intent on wiping them off the earth or seeking to lower them to a base race. Fundamentally the Russians reached the stage, during the Nazi siege of Leningrad, where the only thing they had to keep them going was their hatred of the invader. If only Mr Putin had watched this episode and, as well as taking pride in the history and struggles of his people, realised the abomination that he and his cohorts are now reeking in Ukraine seems not much different from the suffering inflicted on the Russians by Hitler and his cohorts not that long ago.

[applepie2]

Spot on, KintoreMagpie.

[maddogslater]

Or the suffering of the Poles after they carved up Poland with Hitler and tried it on with Finland whom gave it as good as the Ukrainians.

[maddogslater]

Forget the Russian and western propaganda, this article is as good as it gets cutting through the BS on both sides, butchers or nazis, choose carefully grasshopper
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archi...er-in-ukraine/

[BigFatPie]

Oh god, Craig Murray.

[SwalePie]

Tickled me anyway.