League 1 it is then

[Andy_Faber]

I thought I had. You and GP seem to be defending the £350 per hour charged by Quantuma’s accountants on the basis of ‘supply and demand’.
Doctors, nurses, lorry drivers are, for obvious reasons, currently in high demand and there seems to be a shortage of these essential workers but a reluctance to provide the sort of hourly rate that would increase the supply.

'Binmen' (quaint job title by the way) are a great example, and YOU (and me) are the reason the supply/demand equation doesn't (appear to) work. There IS insufficient supply (of the two skills, driving and labouring) to satisfy the demand AT THE WAGE OFFERED, which is limited by the amount councils have available to pay, which is limited by Council Tax coffers, which is limited by how much YOU (and I) are willing to pay. Imagine your next Council Tax assessment, accompanied by a message 'Dear Mr rA, you'll be pleased to know that all refuse amenity staff positions have been filled, and thanks for the extra £1000 Council Tax contribution you are making'. Wouldn't work would it.

So at the wage offered there will be labourers who choose (for example) the building site instead and drivers who choose (for example) haulage instead, and elements of both who decide that being 'on the bins' IS in fact their best option, despite the fact there are higher paying gigs elsewhere - cameraderie, short weeks and early finishes are three attractions

So the equation is actually 'Supply versus demand-at-a-price'. The same applies to most public sector roles, and applies to a lesser extent to private sector roles

'Finance' IMO has become a victim of its own success, it threw of the shackles of 'dry as dust beencounter types' as computerisation came in in the late 70s, and the profession became an attractive gateway into general management but again IMO has become so popular as a career path that at the lower/middle levels of the profession, the salaries offered to plebs without a 'specialism' (human or technical) have been suppressed for many years.

[ramAnag]

'Binmen' (quaint job title by the way) are a great example, and YOU (and me) are the reason the supply/demand equation doesn't (appear to) work. There IS insufficient supply (of the two skills, driving and labouring) to satisfy the demand AT THE WAGE OFFERED, which is limited by the amount councils have available to pay, which is limited by Council Tax coffers, which is limited by how much YOU (and I) are willing to pay. Imagine your next Council Tax assessment, accompanied by a message 'Dear Mr rA, you'll be pleased to know that all refuse amenity staff positions have been filled, and thanks for the extra £1000 Council Tax contribution you are making'. Wouldn't work would it.

So at the wage offered there will be labourers who choose (for example) the building site instead and drivers who choose (for example) haulage instead, and elements of both who decide that being 'on the bins' IS in fact their best option, despite the fact there are higher paying gigs elsewhere - cameraderie, short weeks and early finishes are three attractions

So the equation is actually 'Supply versus demand-at-a-price'. The same applies to most public sector roles, and applies to a lesser extent to private sector roles

'Finance' IMO has become a victim of its own success, it threw of the shackles of 'dry as dust beencounter types' as computerisation came in in the late 70s, and the profession became an attractive gateway into general management but again IMO has become so popular as a career path that at the lower/middle levels of the profession, the salaries offered to plebs without a 'specialism' (human or technical) have been suppressed for many years.

Bit of an odd response that one, AF. You asked for examples and I gave you, ‘Doctors, nurses and lorry drivers’. No mention of binmen, ‘quaint job title’ or otherwise, and I don’t think the limitations of ‘council tax coffers’ really come into the three examples I provided.

Let’s just stick with nurses. I believe their average hourly pay is around £18.26. Either way it compares extremely unfavourably with your fellow accountant’s suggestion regarding the £350 per hour paid to Quantuma’s employees. Nurses are currently in great demand and there is a significant shortage. Personally I value nurses over accountants in terms of the benefits they provide for society and even you must surely accept that there is something seriously wrong with that level of imbalance.

[Andy_Faber]

Bit of an odd response that one, AF. You asked for examples and I gave you, ‘Doctors, nurses and lorry drivers’. No mention of binmen, ‘quaint job title’ or otherwise, and I don’t think the limitations of ‘council tax coffers’ really come into the three examples I provided.

Let’s stick with nurses. I believe their average hourly pay is just under £19 per hour. It compares very unfavourably with your fellow accountant’s suggestion regarding the £350 per hour paid to Quantuma’s employees. Nurses are currently in great demand and there is a significant shortage. Personally I value nurses over accountants in terms of the benefits they provide for society.

you included binmen (and farmers) in an earlier post. Binmen is an easy one to explain but nurses is not a lot different, I didn't use nurses because you probably don't pay significant income tax but I'm sure you do pay Council tax. So lets look at new nursing recruits - they are only in demand at £9.21 an hour, because that's their rate - any significant increase will require a change in administration and an increase in taxes, neither imminent. So they AREN'T actually'in demand' (in the public sector) at £9.22 and above because no such market exists, and the fact that folk can achieve £9.22 or more in other jobs, means a labour gap will arise. In the private sector, there is no shortage of nurses because the supply/demand equation can be squared off by increase in pay rates. Its all straightforward stuff to me (the logic not the fairness) because its one of the areas of business I've dabbled in as has GP.

[ramAnag]

you included binmen (and farmers) in an earlier post. Binmen is an easy one to explain but nurses is not a lot different, I didn't use nurses because you probably don't pay significant income tax but I'm sure you do pay Council tax. So lets look at new nursing recruits - they are only in demand at £9.21 an hour, because that's their rate - any significant increase will require a change in administration and an increase in taxes, neither imminent. So they AREN'T actually'in demand' (in the public sector) at £9.22 and above because no such market exists, and the fact that folk can achieve £9.22 or more in other jobs, means a labour gap will arise. In the private sector, there is no shortage of nurses because the supply/demand equation can be squared off by increase in pay rates. Its all straightforward stuff to me (the logic not the fairness) because its one of the areas of business I've dabbled in as has GP.

Blimey, Andy...talk about changing the goalposts!
You said you wanted examples...so I provided three examples - doctors, nurses and lorry drivers - and you promptly refer back to ‘binmen’ purely to relate your argument to Council Tax.
What I, as a retiree, now pay in tax is irrelevant as, for the purposes of the debate as a whole, is what I pay in Council Tax...so let’s keep it simple.
Nurses are, I believe, paid an average of £18.26 per hour. Accountants, or at least the upper echelons who work for Quantuma and as referred to by GP, earn between £325-£350 per hour.
You’ve justified such fees, for accountants, on the basis of supply and demand. There is a shortage of nurses...a shortage which has been exacerbated by the impact of the pandemic on NHS waiting lists. Common sense suggests that if that shortage in supply is to be addressed then there needs to be an improvement in pay and working conditions for nurses. The demand is certainly there and your comment that they ‘AREN’T actually in demand (in the public sector) is something I believe all those waiting for already delayed hip operations, cancer treatment, heart ops etc would find offensive.
We’ve gone way of topic and I apologise for my part in that (although given the earlier exchanges involving TTR and DCFCA nothing much has been lost) however the central question would now appear to be...isn’t their something terribly wrong with a society which, apparently on the basis of ‘supply and demand’, pays nurses £18.26 per hour while accountants can receive £350?

[MadAmster]

Binmen and nurses = public sector

Accountants = private sector

Improving the wages of the former increases taxes. Improving those of the latter doesn't.

Vive la difference?

[Geoff Parkstone]

Blimey, Andy...talk about changing the goalposts!
You said you wanted examples...so I provided three examples - doctors, nurses and lorry drivers - and you promptly refer back to ‘binmen’ purely to relate your argument to Council Tax.
What I, as a retiree, now pay in tax is irrelevant as, for the purposes of the debate as a whole, is what I pay in Council Tax...so let’s keep it simple.
Nurses are, I believe, paid an average of £18.26 per hour. Accountants, or at least the upper echelons who work for Quantuma and as referred to by GP, earn between £325-£350 per hour.
You’ve justified such fees, for accountants, on the basis of supply and demand. There is a shortage of nurses...a shortage which has been exacerbated by the impact of the pandemic on NHS waiting lists. Common sense suggests that if that shortage in supply is to be addressed then there needs to be an improvement in pay and working conditions for nurses. The demand is certainly there and your comment that they ‘AREN’T actually in demand (in the public sector) is something I believe all those waiting for already delayed hip operations, cancer treatment, heart ops etc would find offensive.
We’ve gone way of topic and I apologise for my part in that (although given the earlier exchanges involving TTR and DCFCA nothing much has been lost) however the central question would now appear to be...isn’t their something terribly wrong with a society which, apparently on the basis of ‘supply and demand’, pays nurses £18.26 per hour while accountants can receive £350?

No

[ramAnag]

Binmen and nurses = public sector

Accountants = private sector

Improving the wages of the former increases taxes. Improving those of the latter doesn't.

Vive la difference?

If GP had expressed that closing sentiment without the question mark I’d have expected it.
From someone like you who has a fully functioning moral compass I’m more puzzled...is the rest of your post explanation or justification...and is the final question mark querying the life expectancy of ‘la difference’?

[Geoff Parkstone]

Blimey, Andy...talk about changing the goalposts!
You said you wanted examples...so I provided three examples - doctors, nurses and lorry drivers - and you promptly refer back to ‘binmen’ purely to relate your argument to Council Tax.
What I, as a retiree, now pay in tax is irrelevant as, for the purposes of the debate as a whole, is what I pay in Council Tax...so let’s keep it simple.
Nurses are, I believe, paid an average of £18.26 per hour. Accountants, or at least the upper echelons who work for Quantuma and as referred to by GP, earn between £325-£350 per hour.
You’ve justified such fees, for accountants, on the basis of supply and demand. There is a shortage of nurses...a shortage which has been exacerbated by the impact of the pandemic on NHS waiting lists. Common sense suggests that if that shortage in supply is to be addressed then there needs to be an improvement in pay and working conditions for nurses. The demand is certainly there and your comment that they ‘AREN’T actually in demand (in the public sector) is something I believe all those waiting for already delayed hip operations, cancer treatment, heart ops etc would find offensive.
We’ve gone way of topic and I apologise for my part in that (although given the earlier exchanges involving TTR and DCFCA nothing much has been lost) however the central question would now appear to be...isn’t their something terribly wrong with a society which, apparently on the basis of ‘supply and demand’, pays nurses £18.26 per hour while accountants can receive £350?

I think what you are overlooking here is that the accountant on 325 is at the top of his or her profession and is most likely running his or her own business and providing employment in the community. The nurse on £ 18 an hour is not. Compare your top accounting salaries to those of senior management figures in the NHS and you may start getting closer.

But equally importantly, in your (not for the first time in life) comparison of apples with oranges, you ignore the fact that within the charge out rate of 325-350 (its not their take home pay) these senior accountants have to pay all the overheads of running an office - eg non chargeable staff time, IT costs, rent and other overheads, professional indemnity insurance (which is hugely expensive) and so on - plus of course having to fund their own pensions etc

A fairer comparison might be your £ 18 an hour for a basic nurse to perhaps £ 100-110 for a senior accountant in practice for himself. Of course he only gets that on chargeable time - the time he spends managing his business, getting clients, technical research and so on is non remunerated and so further dilutes your pay gap. Sickness and holidays do not generate chargeable time either for the professional, unlike the nurse who has paid holidays and sickness.

So maybe compare £ 18 to, say, £ 75. You may consider that invidious, in fact you probably will, but at least you would be making a fair comparison

[ramAnag]

I think what you are overlooking here is that the accountant on 325 is at the top of his or her profession and is most likely running his or her own business and providing employment in the community. The nurse on £ 18 an hour is not. Compare your top accounting salaries to those of senior management figures in the NHS and you may start getting closer.

But equally importantly, in your (not for the first time in life) comparison of apples with oranges, you ignore the fact that within the charge out rate of 325-350 (its not their take home pay) these senior accountants have to pay all the overheads of running an office - eg non chargeable staff time, IT costs, rent and other overheads, professional indemnity insurance (which is hugely expensive) and so on - plus of course having to fund their own pensions etc

A fairer comparison might be your £ 18 an hour for a basic nurse to perhaps £ 100-110 for a senior accountant in practice for himself. Of course he only gets that on chargeable time - the time he spends managing his business, getting clients, technical research and so on is non remunerated and so further dilutes your pay gap. Sickness and holidays do not generate chargeable time either for the professional, unlike the nurse who has paid holidays and sickness.

So maybe compare £ 18 to, say, £ 75. You may consider that invidious, in fact you probably will, but at least you would be making a fair comparison

Which is, imo, a perfectly sensible response...though, tbf, at no time have I put forward an argument in favour of absolute equality.
I’ve just questioned the spectacular imbalance...eg...even working a very modest six hour day would see the Quantuma accountant gross a staggering £10.5k per WEEK.
I’d guess that allows plenty of time for ‘getting clients’ etc and wouldn’t lead to too many worries about sickness and holidays.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Which is, imo, a perfectly sensible response...though, tbf, at no time have I put forward an argument in favour of absolute equality.
I’ve just questioned the spectacular imbalance...eg...even working a very modest six hour day would see the Quantuma accountant gross a staggering £10.5k per WEEK.
I’d guess that allows plenty of time for ‘getting clients’ etc and wouldn’t lead to too many worries about sickness and holidays.

This last sentence demonstrates where you still simply just don't get it. Quantuma plc would bill 10500 on your basis, not any individual employee earn it.

Do you think that if you buy a beer for £5 in a pub, the staff member takes home that fiver? No, there are operational costs involved in serving that pint. Same way Q have operating costs.

The 10500 is turnover to Q, not wages for the individual. All the cost of running Q have to be funded out of that, and like, turnover. The individual accountant whose hours generate that fee income may typically be remunerated 3500 for that week.