O/T:- ⚠️Impressed with the leadership [The UK Party Politics Thread]

[BigFatPie]

I don't think so, the PLP will fight it tooth and nail (but the fact that the grass roots wants it so strongly will make it hard for them to resist)



It's you that brought 'nirvana' into it...a really poor characterisation of what I'm saying. Seeing the end of our dreadful electoral system is key to giving the country a chance to change - I don't think we can survive any more cycles of tories, red tories, tories...

Yes, it was my word to describe the electoral scenario you seem to be imagining. What word would you use? To dismiss the 1997-2010 Labour government as ‘red Tories’ is nonsense. Are you trying to pretend there’s no difference between that and what we’ve had for the last 12 years? Because if you are you’ve been damn lucky. And I fully acknowledge that Blair could have done much more with the majority he had.

[the_anticlough]

Yes, it was my word to describe the electoral scenario you seem to be imagining. What word would you use? To dismiss the 1997-2010 Labour government as ‘red Tories’ is nonsense. Are you trying to pretend there’s no difference between that and what we’ve had for the last 12 years? Because if you are you’ve been damn lucky. And I fully acknowledge that Blair could have done much more with the majority he had.

So 'nirvana' is an election outcome that delivers no workable Govt?
I think it's a likely scenario and could bring positive change in the long run. We would be protected from having a Govt like the Pfeffel one...unlimited power on just 30% of the electorate.

Yes, I'll always regard the Blair Govt as Red Tories - no lasting change was enacted. But 'no difference' is you jumping to an extreme again to misrepresent what I'm saying. Demand more and working class people will get more.
The nature of the Labour leadership, the way Westminster and the media works, the mechanics of Whitehall - all of that points to piecemeal changes only and the exclusion of any voices/ideas calling for more radical change. What's wrong with wanting more than that?
As I said I'll vote Green. Labour has lost my vote and millions like me I'd guess.

[BigFatPie]

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As I said I'll vote Green. Labour has lost my vote and millions like me I'd guess.

Well currently 15 points ahead in the polls so hopefully not too many lost votes so far. A few gained probably.

If Labour do end up losing the votes of people like you, then the only thing you’ll end up with is another Tory government. And if the current troglodyte contest going on is anything to go by, it’ll be worse than what we’ve already had. Imagining any government led by Starmer wouldn’t be a million times better than anything they have to offer is mistaken imo.

[the_anticlough]

If Labour do end up losing the votes of people like you, then the only thing you’ll end up with is another Tory government..

Socialists cannot be locked into this trap forever - the strait-jacket of the two party FPTP system. If you don't want a Thatcherite, you can have a Blairite for a few years and the country stays basically the same. The sooner the cycle is broken, and the whole system replaced, the better.

[Mapperleypie]

Socialists cannot be locked into this trap forever - the strait-jacket of the two party FPTP system. If you don't want a Thatcherite, you can have a Blairite for a few years and the country stays basically the same. The sooner the cycle is broken, and the whole system replaced, the better.

I completely agree and the sooner the FPTP system is removed the better (the Tories love it but don't even use it for their poxy leadership election). It's *******ised the system for some time leading to many folks not really voting for who they really want to win but instead voting for the least worse option or worse completely wasting their vote.

I do think the only way FPTP is removed soon is by tactical voting at the next election potentially leading to a Lab/Lib Dem coalition.

If you think Labour have lurched too far to the centre for you anticlough I would recommend holding your nose at the ballot box. Sadly a vote for the Greens in nearly every seat in the UK (apart from Brighton & Hove) is a wasted vote under FPTP and assists the Tories.

[BigFatPie]

I completely agree and the sooner the FPTP system is removed the better (the Tories love it but don't even use it for their poxy leadership election). It's *******ised the system for some time leading to many folks not really voting for who they really want to win but instead voting for the least worse option or worse completely wasting their vote.

I do think the only way FPTP is removed soon is by tactical voting at the next election potentially leading to a Lab/Lib Dem coalition.

If you think Labour have lurched too far to the centre for you anticlough I would recommend holding your nose at the ballot box. Sadly a vote for the Greens in nearly every seat in the UK (apart from Brighton & Hove) is a wasted vote under FPTP and assists the Tories.

I’m 100% behind PR, though I think Driller’s predictions of what may happen to the political landscape could well be pretty accurate. We can’t risk ever having another majority Tory government though.

As regards immigration, it was a major reason why Corbyn and many of his fellow travellers on the far left were ambivalent/supportive about Brexit, they imagined a future where the majority of foreign workers were kicked out f the country and the great British artisan could rightfully claim the wage he was entitled to. How’s that working out?

[the_anticlough]

If you think Labour have lurched too far to the centre for you anticlough I would recommend holding your nose at the ballot box. Sadly a vote for the Greens in nearly every seat in the UK (apart from Brighton & Hove) is a wasted vote under FPTP and assists the Tories.

But that kind of thinking is part of the endless closed circle that supports the status quo.
As an individual voter, my single vote is never going to matter anyway. But let's suppose we're talking about voters like me en masse...Still can't do it, unless they pledge PR (or Burnham is leader), it's way beyond 'holding your nose' for me

In any case, I'd like to see all people like me vote Green, try to embarrass the voting system, hope for a hung parliament (likely), see Labour receive that final push into backing electoral reform.

As far as 'the greatest happiness for the greatest number' is concerned, people being a bit better off from 2024-28 is nothing compared to the plight of many future generations of British people ruled by Thatcherites with the occasional Blairite interlude for the rest of the 22nd Century. In terms of risk and reward, there's not enough to lose, too much to gain by rolling the dice and trying to change the country into one that works for everyone.

Since Starmar rejected it, the country's largest union has come out in favour of PR to join 83% of the membership apparently.

Just one simple message on their website.

"Our political class has failed working people and our system is broken. It is time to change our democracy."

https://www.unitetheunion.org/news-e...ter-elections/
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[drillerpie]

Sorry I meant to say right wing parties are pragmatic, not dogmatic.

[drillerpie]

Really interesting conversation this.

I'm pro PR but I think some people are missing a trick if they think moving to PR would turn Britain into a socialist paradise.

You would end up with Labour fracturing into Corbynite and Blairite parties, and before/during/after an election campaign they would have to compromise on policy, and the end result might not be very different to what we have now.

In addition we would probably have a centrist party (which might be the Blairite party plus a few moderate Conservatives).

On the other end of the spectrum the same thing would happen to the Conservative party and as well as helping parties further to the left it would also help those further to the right.

The big problem in my view remains that the number of people willing to vote for an old fashioned 'economic left' is quite high, but the economic left is so wedded to the current 'cultural left' or 'intellectual left' (mass immigration, extreme political correctness, perceived or real anti patriotism) that people would probably prefer to vote for the far right, which offers the working class something similar to the economic left but without the compromise on cultural issues.

[the_anticlough]

Really interesting conversation this.

I'm pro PR but I think some people are missing a trick if they think moving to PR would turn Britain into a socialist paradise.]

I doubt anyone would think that.

[You would end up with Labour fracturing into Corbynite and Blairite parties, and before/during/after an election campaign they would have to compromise on policy, and the end result might not be very different to what we have now.

In addition we would probably have a centrist party (which might be the Blairite party plus a few moderate Conservatives).

On the other end of the spectrum the same thing would happen to the Conservative party and as well as helping parties further to the left it would also help those further to the right.

Yeah, the two main parties would likely smash to smithereens pretty quickly. That'd be a positive thing!
You'd probably get a couple of decades of centrifugal fracturing before parties began to combine and consolidate again. For me though, it's firstly about guaranteeing a voice, platform and place for the radical ideas the country desperately needs. Suppression of alternatives is one of main aims/outcomes of the current Westminster, business and finance-based system.

It'd be quite unpredictable. Projecting outcomes is interesting, but that misses the point really. You change the voting system because it's the right and fair thing to do.

Imagine devising a political system for a new country from scratch. Erm...What shall we do...
A) Let everyone vote and then have a forum of representatives in proportion to that vote...or
B ) Have a vote and then give disproportionately high representation and unlimited power to one and zero to others...