One of our own

[Chicken Balti Pie]

The problem with youth players is they come out of the academy for us at 18. Unless they are an exceptional talent, they aren't ready for the first team, if they are an exceptional talent, they'll be gone such as Etete, Dongda He and Jack Bearne. We are non-league, we don't have the budget to wait until they have developed further so miss out. Look at Bishop, he spent a few years even lower than we are now until Accrington took a punt on him a few years after he left Notts. We could have tried to keep him and loan him out but that is budget we don't have right now

[jackal2]

Years ago we had proper reserve league football (Pontins League or whichever other sponsor) which featured the best upcoming youngsters mixed in with senior professionals who were either returning from injury or out of favour. It provided the perfect 'bridge' for our young players to cross from youth football into first-team football, but we don't really have that anymore.

I think it's also true that managers and fans have created a narrative that discourages the blooding of youth players. Young players get labelled with apparently positive but actually insincere tags like 'one for the future' or 'not ready yet', implying that they might be trusted at some point going forward, but this rarely happens. The reality is that few if any young players arrive 'ready' for first-team football. You have to trust in their talent and give them first-team opportunities to learn and become ready, and that takes courage and patience from those in charge and those in the stands.

[The_Don_ORiordan]

The problem is, if we started playing a load of youngsters who aren't quite ready, our results would get worse. LW (and every head coach or manager before him) is under pressure to get results NOW, not in a few years. We've got fans booing at half time, four games into the season with us still unbeaten. If you were in that position, would you be willing to send an 18-year-old with virtually no experience into the first team, even if they showed a lot of promise?

Players like Colby Bishop did their developing elsewhere because when they were at Notts, they almost certainly weren't as good as the older pros we had. The manager at the time needed to get results, just like LW does now.

So it's a tricky situation. We don't have the money to invest in a top-tier academy, and our managers/head coaches don't have the time or space to develop youngsters in the first team. So it makes a lot more sense at this stage to scout young talent that's already first-team ready, like Cal Roberts, and then sell them on, or take other clubs' youngsters on loan.

No one is saying we play a load of kids.

But other clubs at our level seem to manage to include some of their own and compete with bigger clubs around them.

We seem to have literally none. Even with tin pot trophy competitions they could appear in.

It’s clearly a philosophy issue (from multiple owners). In which case, why not close the academy?

I honestly don’t think it should be a white flag waving exercise. There is funding towards academies, and not all players come from league academies. We just need to take a punt occasionally, we seem to have had no issue with taking a punt on players we sign, nor a manager who is far from proven.

[Notts78]

No one is saying we play a load of kids.

But other clubs at our level seem to manage to include some of their own and compete with bigger clubs around them.

We seem to have literally none. Even with tin pot trophy competitions they could appear in.

It’s clearly a philosophy issue (from multiple owners). In which case, why not close the academy?

I honestly don’t think it should be a white flag waving exercise. There is funding towards academies, and not all players come from league academies. We just need to take a punt occasionally, we seem to have had no issue with taking a punt on players we sign, nor a manager who is far from proven.

Which clubs at our level have there own grown players? Which of those clubs have been a league club and have the expectation we have?

[The_Don_ORiordan]

Which clubs at our level have there own grown players? Which of those clubs have been a league club and have the expectation we have?

Even Wrexham with their millions have one home grown player who plays regularly. He even scored in their last game.

Is the expectation there lower than ours?

Grimsby played one in their playoff final against us.

Just two off the top of my head. But I’m sure if I looked I’d find more at each club.

Any chance of answering the whole of my post? Do you agree with the rest?

We have none playing regularly for us, and we would need to go back a fair while to find one who scored for us…….at least as far as being a league club maybe even a league one club.

This isn’t a new problem.

[slack_pie]

No one is saying we play a load of kids.

But other clubs at our level seem to manage to include some of their own and compete with bigger clubs around them.

We seem to have literally none. Even with tin pot trophy competitions they could appear in.

It’s clearly a philosophy issue (from multiple owners). In which case, why not close the academy?

I honestly don’t think it should be a white flag waving exercise. There is funding towards academies, and not all players come from league academies. We just need to take a punt occasionally, we seem to have had no issue with taking a punt on players we sign, nor a manager who is far from proven.

The academy has produced a few players in recent years that we've sold, probably for a decent amount and certainly with plenty of clauses should they go on to be successful. Jack Bearne, Dongda He, Kion Etete. So it's not like the academy is completely fruitless.

Then there are the ones that got away, like Colby Bishop. But as others have said, he wasn't good enough to play for us when we had him. He had to drop down a few divisions to earn his stripes, as so many other players do. We probably didn't have the resources to keep him on the books on the off-chance he became the player he is today. The only one that genuinely seemed like a poor decision both at the time and in hindsight was letting Curtis Thompson go.

I assume the only reason no academy players are in the starting line-up today is because they simply aren't good enough, not because of some systemic issue that's preventing them from getting a look-in.

As for Grimsby and Wrexham having one player from their academies in their starting line-ups - good for them, but neither club has to compete with a Premier League club a few hundred metres away. If Wrexham had a Forest-style club across the road, perhaps their academy star wouldn't have been with them in the first place. Who knows.

I just think it's unrealistic in our current position to expect to be bringing through first-team stars on a regular basis. We might have the odd one on our books every few years, but chances are they'll get snapped up by bigger clubs if they are genuinely talented. That's just the way it is. It's not a philosophy issue, it's just reality.

The only club that bucks this trend - and has for decades - is Crewe, who seem to have a conveyor belt of decent young players coming out of their academy. But they are certainly an exception.

[ncfcog]

This is interesting from the BDO website . . .

https://www.bdo.co.uk/en-gb/insights...nt-in-football

The final part of this page reads as follows, . .

Interestingly, despite two-thirds of FL1&FL2 Clubs increasing their emphasis on academies to drive success, only 53% of Respondents were expecting to see an increase in academy to first team conversion for the 2020/21 season, compared with 73% in 2019/20. In saying this, the most common challenges these Clubs identified in bringing through talent from the academies were;

• the medium-to-long term funding required to invest in adequate facilities;
• the fear of failure/relegation resulting in Clubs not wanting to take a chance on young players; and
• the perceived availability of talent in the local area to make the investment worthwhile - particularly prevalent in less densely populated areas of the country

For those who have plenty of time on their hands there are several insights into financing football clubs including a full blown Football Finance Directors Report.

https://www.bdo.co.uk/en-gb/insights...rectors-report

[The_Don_ORiordan]

The academy has produced a few players in recent years that we've sold, probably for a decent amount and certainly with plenty of clauses should they go on to be successful. Jack Bearne, Dongda He, Kion Etete. So it's not like the academy is completely fruitless.

Then there are the ones that got away, like Colby Bishop. But as others have said, he wasn't good enough to play for us when we had him. He had to drop down a few divisions to earn his stripes, as so many other players do. We probably didn't have the resources to keep him on the books on the off-chance he became the player he is today. The only one that genuinely seemed like a poor decision both at the time and in hindsight was letting Curtis Thompson go.

I assume the only reason no academy players are in the starting line-up today is because they simply aren't good enough, not because of some systemic issue that's preventing them from getting a look-in.

As for Grimsby and Wrexham having one player from their academies in their starting line-ups - good for them, but neither club has to compete with a Premier League club a few hundred metres away. If Wrexham had a Forest-style club across the road, perhaps their academy star wouldn't have been with them in the first place. Who knows.

I just think it's unrealistic in our current position to expect to be bringing through first-team stars on a regular basis. We might have the odd one on our books every few years, but chances are they'll get snapped up by bigger clubs if they are genuinely talented. That's just the way it is. It's not a philosophy issue, it's just reality.

The only club that bucks this trend - and has for decades - is Crewe, who seem to have a conveyor belt of decent young players coming out of their academy. But they are certainly an exception.

You throw a “no local PL club” I’ll throw a “densely populated”. You can’t have it all ways, there’s many multiple times the amount of population around us than Grimsby and Wrexham.

Yes, we’ve had youngsters who have been snapped up, and maybe that is really the philosophy. But surely other clubs have this problem?

We are really not unique.

Academy players are always compared to the Robert’s of the team, not the many young players we’ve signed who’ve stolen a living from us like the campbell’s, daniels etc.

And this really isn’t a new problem. “In our current position” perhaps highlights the short term thinking that has put us here.

[The_Don_ORiordan]

This is interesting from the BDO website . . .

https://www.bdo.co.uk/en-gb/insights...nt-in-football

The final part of this page reads as follows, . .

Interestingly, despite two-thirds of FL1&FL2 Clubs increasing their emphasis on academies to drive success, only 53% of Respondents were expecting to see an increase in academy to first team conversion for the 2020/21 season, compared with 73% in 2019/20. In saying this, the most common challenges these Clubs identified in bringing through talent from the academies were;

• the medium-to-long term funding required to invest in adequate facilities;
• the fear of failure/relegation resulting in Clubs not wanting to take a chance on young players; and
• the perceived availability of talent in the local area to make the investment worthwhile - particularly prevalent in less densely populated areas of the country

For those who have plenty of time on their hands there are several insights into financing football clubs including a full blown Football Finance Directors Report.

https://www.bdo.co.uk/en-gb/insights...rectors-report

Fascinating. The expectation of failure resulting in failure….sums up the current view of our approach.

[slack_pie]

Fascinating. The expectation of failure resulting in failure….sums up the current view of our approach.

Clubs that rely on youngsters may fail even harder though.

Academies make sense for top clubs, who can pick the absolute best young talent and have the facilities to nurture them. But for clubs of our size, it just seems too big a risk to throw money at something that probably won't work.

The chances of a youth-team player becoming an established first-team player for a lower-league club are pretty slim. If they aren't good enough or ready enough (the vast majority), they'll go - or the club will play them and be weaker on the field. If they are genuinely talented (and we've had a few), they'll go.