McClean whinging again.

[avondalemiller]

I've no problem with any one of any Nationality speak out about what they think, that's why my Dad and his mates stood on the beach in Normandy. but don't complain when you hear something that you don't like or agree with.
J K Rowling(for example) spoke out women and the Trans issues/rights and the poo hit the fan from the "cancel" culture mob. They want you to listen to them but don't want to listen to you if you've a different view, they just spit the dummy out and cry "cancel" them.

I think a lot of people need to stand back and chill out........................UTM

[John2]

but don't complain when you hear something that you don't like or agree with.

This is a pretty bleak vision you have of society? Nobody should speak out when they oppose something? I'm not being flippant... is that actually what you think? Or only when they oppose something you also oppose?

J K Rowling(for example) spoke out women and the Trans issues/rights and the poo hit the fan from the "cancel" culture mob. They want you to listen to them but don't want to listen to you if you've a different view, they just spit the dummy out and cry "cancel" them

Here we go again...

What free speech laws did JK Rowling break?

The answer is ZERO. You got to hear her views. That is free speech. What don't people get about this!?

If people hear views they don't like they're allowed to boycott that individual. That's their free speech too.

The only way we avoid this scenario is if you make it illegal to disagree with someone. Then we actually lose free speech.

All this cancel culture stuff, when people list actual examples of things they have issues with, isn't a free speech issue at all.

It's often just boomers getting upset that they can't say outdated views without people disagreeing with them.


Please name a single example of things that people actually banned from saying that they shouldn't be.

The closest you will get is that people have faced disciplinary action for things they have done or said at work that have made people uncomfortable around them, but when we work we have to agree to a certain standard of behaviour. That applies to all jobs and not even about what we say, and is entirely reasonable for employers to protect their reputation and the working environment.

I'll wait for an example....

[vaterland_miller]

This is a pretty bleak vision you have of society? Nobody should speak out when they oppose something? I'm not being flippant... is that actually what you think? Or only when they oppose something you also oppose?



Here we go again...

What free speech laws did JK Rowling break?

The answer is ZERO. You got to hear her views. That is free speech. What don't people get about this!?

If people hear views they don't like they're allowed to boycott that individual. That's their free speech too.

The only way we avoid this scenario is if you make it illegal to disagree with someone. Then we actually lose free speech.

All this cancel culture stuff, when people list actual examples of things they have issues with, isn't a free speech issue at all.

It's often just boomers getting upset that they can't say outdated views without people disagreeing with them.


Please name a single example of things that people actually banned from saying that they shouldn't be.

The closest you will get is that people have faced disciplinary action for things they have done or said at work that have made people uncomfortable around them, but when we work we have to agree to a certain standard of behaviour. That applies to all jobs and not even about what we say, and is entirely reasonable for employers to protect their reputation and the working environment.

I'll wait for an example....

To get a job as an academic at a UK university people are forced to write something called a "diversity statement". Its strange how in this new Orwellian world words mean the opposite of what they used to mean - some academics are be forced to state something with which they disagree and the effect is to reduce the diversity of opinions at universities.

Its easy to find examples that you claim to be awaiting but you probably don't want to know about them. There is a woman who was sent to prison for writing and singing a song. Find it yourself because I am scared of the nasty people who send people to prison for writing and singing songs and it appears to me to be risky to even talk about such things on an internet forum.

I refer you to the excellent book "Kindly Inquisitors: The New Attacks on Free Thought" by Jonathan Rauch if you want to find out why you are wrong to assume the right to decide that people who are "just boomers getting upset that they can't say outdated views" should be prevented from earning a living if they don't submit to the current sociological dogma that you seem to like.

[John2]

To get a job as an academic at a UK university people are forced to write something called a "diversity statement". Its strange how in this new Orwellian world words mean the opposite of what they used to mean - some academics are be forced to state something with which they disagree and the effect is to reduce the diversity of opinions at universities.

Wait, what do you think a diversity statement contains?

You think people are forced to state things they disagree with? What sort of things? How have you come to these conclusions?

[vaterland_miller]

Wait, what do you think a diversity statement contains?

You think people are forced to state things they disagree with? What sort of things? How have you come to these conclusions?

I have zero interest in what it contains. It is an example of expensive woke nonsense that provides a whole new industry for nice people with social science backgrounds to receive high salaries from tax-payers whilst deciding who gets a job and who doesn't. Why should anyone be forced to make a sociological statement if they want to teach anything let alone a subject like mathematics? And what of those candidates who are "just boomers getting upset that they can't say outdated views" whose "outdated" ideas are deemed by the nice people making the decisions to be unacceptable (even though those views are irrelevant to the job). And how does this improve diversity of opinion in the university?

[John2]

I have zero interest in what it contains.

Herein lies the problem.

Your entire argument centred around diversity statements being a "bad thing" without any justification of why, or evidence you understand what they even are.

In any job, employers have a duty to find the right person for the role.

I don't think a diversity statement is at all what you think it is or has the effects you think it has.

If you don't even care what's in them and are willing to be spoonfed opinions by people espousing marxist-culture war propaganda... how can you be so sure they're a bad thing?

[vaterland_miller]

Herein lies the problem.

Your entire argument centred around diversity statements being a "bad thing" without any justification of why, or evidence you understand what they even are.

In any job, employers have a duty to find the right person for the role.

I don't think a diversity statement is at all what you think it is or has the effects you think it has.

If you don't even care what's in them and are willing to be spoonfed opinions by people espousing marxist-culture war propaganda... how can you be so sure they're a bad thing?

You know as well as I do what is meant by "diversity" and it is not academic diversity. It is social, ethnic and cultural diversity they are obsessed with and such concepts have no place in the selection processes for jobs or places at university. The only diversity that matters at university is diversity of ideas and opinions and that type of diversity is constrained by compulsory "Diversity Statements".

I wonder if the late great Roger Scruton's "Diversity Statement" was the reason he couldn't get a tenure position in his later years - a great loss to the students he would have shared his remarkable wisdom and knowledge with.

To satisfy you I have looked at a random selection of example "diversity statements" on the Internet and tedious it was but it was exactly as I expected. I didn't find any mention of academic diversity or diversity of opinions/ideas. I didn't expect to. I think you are deliberately wasting my time so that I'll eventually just go away and take my inconvenient "out-dated" opinions with me - and I probably will.

Why would you assume I can't think for myself just because I don't subscribe to the currently fashionable political ideas (ideas that are assumed by their proponents to be sacred truths that are the only mark of a good person)? I have never been "spoonfed opinions by people espousing marxist-culture war propaganda" nor have I ever been "spoonfed" anything that I taken on face value - I have always thought about it and read up on it (well that wasn't always very easy before the Internet but we did have books and magazines and journals and newspapers). I have spent a lifetime of active interest in science and technology and I have a diverse set of interests in the Arts and Humanities that have been informed from a wide range of sources. Where have you acquired your trendy, left-wing ideas John?

I don't suppose Putin's armed forces are very worried by the prospect more black lesbian RAF pilots but they are probably pleased that the RAF is wasting its resources and time on "diversity" nonsense.

[CAMiller]

I have zero interest in what it contains. It is an example of expensive woke nonsense that provides a whole new industry for nice people with social science backgrounds to receive high salaries from tax-payers whilst deciding who gets a job and who doesn't. Why should anyone be forced to make a sociological statement if they want to teach anything let alone a subject like mathematics? And what of those candidates who are "just boomers getting upset that they can't say outdated views" whose "outdated" ideas are deemed by the nice people making the decisions to be unacceptable (even though those views are irrelevant to the job). And how does this improve diversity of opinion in the university?

Diversity statements have become standard requirements for many job applications here in the US. Mrs. CA is currently looking for work and has been asked to complete them in her pursuit for positions in high powered roles such as Administrative Assistant and Receptionist.

Along similar lines I had the "pleasure" earlier this week in attending 4 hours of compulsory CREI (Civil Rights, Equity and Inclusion) training where I work. The majority of the class taught me about White Privilege, White Supremacy Culture and White Fragility (look them up if you want enlightening). Today I submitted my feedback on the training. I'm told the feedback is anonymous. I guess I'll know if that's true if I'm still in a job in a couple of weeks.

[vaterland_miller]

You have my email address CAM. Drop me a line if you lose your job. The idiots running such companies and organizations deserve to lose everyone who can think. Unfortunately central to their policy is the attraction of marketing to the growing numbers of successfully brainwashed members of the younger generations - the woke zombies. They assume that they can take the rest of us for granted but they can't.

[CAMiller]

Diversity statements have become standard requirements for many job applications here in the US. Mrs. CA is currently looking for work and has been asked to complete them in her pursuit for positions in high powered roles such as Administrative Assistant and Receptionist.

Along similar lines I had the "pleasure" earlier this week in attending 4 hours of compulsory CREI (Civil Rights, Equity and Inclusion) training where I work. The majority of the class taught me about White Privilege, White Supremacy Culture and White Fragility (look them up if you want enlightening). Today I submitted my feedback on the training. I'm told the feedback is anonymous. I guess I'll know if that's true if I'm still in a job in a couple of weeks.

In case anyone was worried I can confirm this article is not about me (at least not yet )

https://news.yahoo.com/seattle-man-c...165300730.html

In the meantime, there's a 4 hour seminar next week where I work entitled "What's Up With White Women?" (the answer is apparently control, perfectionism and defensiveness). I'm considering a counter argument/seminar and replacing white with another colour to see if it receives corporate approval.