O/T:- Ukraine [Incorporating 'Congrats to Russia' thread]

[Jampie]

It's fascinating to me how desperate they're getting. Attacking civilian power infrastructure with Iranian suicide drones... hardly the power move of a great military now is it...

[SwalePie]

Yeah there was the Dean of Politics at Moscow State University a couple of weeks ago saying Ukraine isn't a real nation and it has no right to exist.

There was the military man who said Belarus is actually Russia, and they had a Belarusian guest on so they had to stop him and remind that Belarus is an independent republic (that is until they manage to have an election Lukashenko doesn't rig, then that too will be annexed, no doubt).

Plus many deeply disturbing speakers revelling in the destruction of playgrounds, apartments and civilian infrastructure.

The female host on that '60 minutes' type Russian TV show is a scary creature too!

[andy6025]

It's fascinating to me how desperate they're getting. Attacking civilian power infrastructure with Iranian suicide drones... hardly the power move of a great military now is it...

By that logic, NATO was desperate when it attacked the Serbian power grid in the opening days of their bombing campaign there.

“NATO airstrikes on Yugoslavia's power grid left millions of people without electricity or water service today, bringing the war over Kosovo more directly into the lives of civilians across the country.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-sr...rade052599.htm

...or when they attacked Iraq in operation desert storm:

“Because most of the information from Operation Desert Storm is still clas* sified, it is difficult to make definitive judgments about the impact of attacks on electrical power, but once again electric power was a high priority target.”

https://media.defense.gov/2017/Dec/2...GIC_ATTACK.PDF

[Old_pie]

By that logic, NATO was desperate when it attacked the Serbian power grid in the opening days of their bombing campaign there.

“NATO airstrikes on Yugoslavia's power grid left millions of people without electricity or water service today, bringing the war over Kosovo more directly into the lives of civilians across the country.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-sr...rade052599.htm

...or when they attacked Iraq in operation desert storm:

“Because most of the information from Operation Desert Storm is still clas* sified, it is difficult to make definitive judgments about the impact of attacks on electrical power, but once again electric power was a high priority target.”

https://media.defense.gov/2017/Dec/2...GIC_ATTACK.PDF

Am I misunderstanding something? I thought, however misguided if indeed they were, that the interventions by NATO/Western Coalitions were in attempts to bring about a peace. Is Russia still trying to clear out the Nazis or do they really want to drown and burn Ukrainian children?

Seems to me that you really are a Spanish communist revolutionary at heart, with Lenin, Stalin, Franco, Castro and Che Guevara your idols but forced to reside in a safe democratic country. You must hate it there. Are you encouraged that Xi Jinping has secured his future for the foreseeable future? Perhaps your views would be more welcomed in Pyongyang than on here.

There should be a Western Alliance to carry out Special Operations (not a war of course) and clear the Ukraine border 100mile into Russia to provide a buffer.

Perhaps you could tell me which countries were forced in NATO, and perhaps which USA invasion has led to the 51st State.

[andy6025]

Am I misunderstanding something?

Yes, it seems you are. The other guy said that Russia’s attack on Ukrainian power grids meant that Russia is desperate. I said that by that logic, NATO was desperate when it attacked Serbia’s power grid, and the US was desperate when it attacked the Iraqi power grid.

Do you think we should formulate consistent theories, or is it better to just make stuff up as we go along?

I thought, however misguided if indeed they were, that the interventions by NATO/Western Coalitions were in attempts to bring about a peace.

You could make a decent argument that the wars on Serbia and Iraq were well intentioned but wrong. Others might argue that in the case of Serbia, Bill Clinton was trying to salvage his presidency by creating a distraction (wag the dog), or that The US was playing geopolitics by attacking a Russian ally, or that they were trying to justify the continued existence of a post cold-war NATO, etc.

In the case of Iraq one could argue, as you’ve suggested, that it was indeed misguided - such as the US Congress being duped into believing that Iraqi soldiers were going into Kuwaiti maternity wards and removing babies from their incubators and leaving them to die on the floor, or that the Americans gave Saddam Hussein the green light to invade Kuwait because they were allegedly fracking oil under Iraq territory, etc.

Is Russia still trying to clear out the Nazis or do they really want to drown and burn Ukrainian children?

According to the Russian foreign minister Lavrov, the objectives of the special military operation have remained unchanged. I haven’t heard anything about claims of drowning and burning Ukrainian children, but why do you ask - has Nayirah al-Ṣabaḥ made another appearance snd this time she’s working for the Ukrainians?

Seems to me that you really are a Spanish communist revolutionary at heart, with Lenin, Stalin, Franco, Castro and Che Guevara your idols but forced to reside in a safe democratic country. You must hate it there.

Ah yes, the “love it or leave it” argument. Never mind that my home, family, work, friends and life are here - I must immediately pack up and move somewhere that suits my politics better. Funny nobody here questions why I don’t move to Nottingham since I support Notts.

That said, I do find the ‘collective west’ to be less free than it pretends to be. This funny clip from Sacha Baron Cohen about sums up how free we are:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zIOPw0Ewj4Q

Are you encouraged that Xi Jinping has secured his future for the foreseeable future?

Sure. Did you have someone else in particular in mind that you prefer to govern China? I mean, never mind that you’re not Chinese nor do you live there, but you’re just as entitled to have your opinion on who ought to govern China. So, who did you have in mind?

Perhaps your views would be more welcomed in Pyongyang than on here.

Perhaps! You’re welcome to go there and do a survey of the people of some top quotes from me and find out!

Interestingly though you seem to be presenting rather contradictory ideas. On the one hand, you seem to suggest that we (the collective west) live in democracies, where free political debate and the sharing of ideas is not only tolerated, but celebrated. On the other hand, because my opinion differs from the mainstream narrative, I ought to f*%k off out of here. Make up your mind.

There should be a Western Alliance to carry out Special Operations (not a war of course) and clear the Ukraine border 100mile into Russia to provide a buffer.

I don’t think it would turn out like you think, but it’d make for an interesting gamble nonetheless.

Perhaps you could tell me which countries were forced in NATO, and perhaps which USA invasion has led to the 51st State.

Given that European leaders have been undermining their own interests for quite some time, it’s not outlandish to think that some of them are perhaps being forced into making bad decisions. Take for example that Germany says they know ‘whodunnit’ on the pipeline, but aren’t going to say... you know, for reasons of ‘national security’. Seems that they might be being coerced.

As for the 51st state, it looks like it’s about to be Haiti. Is an invasion there ok with you?

[Jampie]

By that logic, NATO was desperate when it attacked the Serbian power grid in the opening days of their bombing campaign there.

Whataboutism. Another classic kremlin troll tactic.

Honestly you've been so quiet lately I was beginning to think you'd been conscripted.

[andy6025]

Whataboutism. Another classic kremlin troll tactic.

Honestly you've been so quiet lately I was beginning to think you'd been conscripted.

You: Russia is so weak and desperate, they attacked Ukraine’s power grid!

Me: The US also attacked the power grids in both Serbia and Iraq, but they won.

You: Whataboutism! Whataboutism! Whataboutism!!! You must be a Kremlin bot!!!


Lol, no. Nobody’s a bot here. I’m just showing you how absurdly ridiculous your claims are. Try thinking before you type.

[Jampie]

You: Russia is so weak and desperate, they attacked Ukraine’s power grid!

With Iranian drones.

Me: The US also attacked the power grids in both Serbia and Iraq, but they won.

You: Quick, make this about wars that ended decades ago and cherry pick like mad!

Are you seriously comparing the FARCE enacted by Russia in Ukraine to either Desert storm or 2003? Ye gods.

[andy6025]

With Iranian drones.



You: Quick, make this about wars that ended decades ago and cherry pick like mad!

Are you seriously comparing the FARCE enacted by Russia in Ukraine to either Desert storm or 2003? Ye gods.

Yes. Your claim is that attacking power grids is not the sign of great military power, but rather one of desperation. A simple comparison with past conflicts shows that it is a common tactic for ‘great military powers’, and therefore you don’t know what you’re talking about.

If you’re trying to pass it off now that it’s the use of Iranian drones that shows claimed weakness and/or desperation, then you might have done well to notice that not only were the strikes also carried out with cruise missile and air strikes, but that drones have become recognized as quite effective in modern warfare - even the Ukrainians are using them. Here’s an article from the NYT talking about how wonderful they are (rather than them being a sign of weakness):

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...ure-of-warfare

But before you get too excited though, last week the Ukrainian chairman of the Committee on National Security and Defense, Serhii Pashynskyi, got caught in a prank call insulting their Turkish Bayraktar drones. He said, “There is more to public relations (PR) and corruption in Bayraktar than the use of combat... I personally object to them, because they are very vulnerable to air defense systems”. He added that Ukraine had a lot of Bayraktar before the fighting broke out. “They were all shot down within a week,”

https://www.world-today-news.com/ukr...oke-interview/

So it turns out that the Iranian drones are much better. So much better, in fact, that almost 2 dozen countries are lining up to buy some:

https://eurasiantimes.com/22-countri...ones-that/?amp

Womp womp.

[Jampie]

Again you sidestep the issue... although the fact that you aren't debating that Russia used Iranian drones is weird for you. You realise the Kremlin is still denying that? Or am I behind on that one and they've given up?

Anyway, the issue is simply this: The desperation part is needing to go to Iran, formerly very much the junior partner in warcrimes and terrorism, and beg them for suicide drones, because Russia's wasted so many of of their PGMs. Oops!