O/T:- Ukraine [Incorporating 'Congrats to Russia' thread]

[andy6025]

What do you say to the person who posted:



What do you say to:

In the 1991 referendum on Ukrainian independence, 83.9% of voters in Donetsk Oblast and 83.6% in Luhansk Oblast supported independence from the Soviet Union. Turnout was 76.7% in Donetsk Oblast and 80.7% in Luhansk Oblast.[41] In October 1991, a congress of South-Eastern deputies from all levels of government took place in Donetsk, where delegates demanded federalisation.[30]

As I understand it this referendum was not held at gunpoint.

I fear that if I allowed myself to be educated by you I would end up a fool.

To the person who posted the ‘congrats’ post I say nothing as I’m not in the habit of talking to myself.

But if you mean to ask what I think of my post - I stand by every word of it. The people of Donetsk and the other oblasts have been attacked and/or suppressed by fascists for over 8 years. Given the crumbling state of the AFU during this time of the war, they were very heavily bolstered by ultranationalist regiments who tattoo themselves with swastikas and other Nazi insignia, goose step and Nazi salute regularly, pay homage to the leader of their historical nationalist extermination programs, and openly declare that they still want to cleans Ukraine of non-pure Ukrainians. Nothing sickens me more than Nazis who, by their very ideology, have no concept of fairness and consistency but who’s ideas are instead purely based on a warped concept of “us” being better than “them”.

The European leadership class has readily gotten into bed with these ideologues for whatever reasons I can only speculate: some of them are probably bought off (corruption), others are ideologues themselves and still have a Russophobic Cold War mentality, and all of them seem to have an inherent need to bend the knee to their American masters. As I said - they see it as a geopolitical game. No doubt they might be between a rock and a hard place, because if they don’t then the Americans (and British?) will blow up the infrastructure that their own friends and allies depend on. As Macron is now realizing: the Americans are indeed “some friend”.

But most of all the European leadership class thought they’d be able support the Nazis and punish Russia without any consequences to themselves. They proudly boast that they’ve levelled on Russia the toughest sanctions ever known and then awaited the collapse of the Russian economy. But that didn’t happen! Now they’re complaining that Russia is “weaponizing energy” or “weaponizing food and fertilizers”because the continent is rapidly de-industrializing, electricity and heating bills are soaring, rolling black-outs are expected, food prices are through the roof and recession is imminent (Jeremy *unt says you’re already in one!). Seriously? In a game of chess you’re supposed to think a number of moves ahead. Well, how many moves ahead was this all planned? What went wrong? As British rail is fond of saying; was it the wrong kind of snow?

Meanwhile the Americans are taking your industry, taking your brainiacs, and giving you back LNG at four times the price. Don’t worry, Jampie says, Europe will just leapfrog gas and coal altogether and go straight to renewables! Just like the Ukrainians, European citizens are being used as pawns and cannon fodder in what the Americans see as a geopolitical game.

As Kissinger said: America has no permanent friends or enemies, only national interests.

Other people have interests too. But as Orban said, so far the Europeans have shot themselves in the lungs.

The best way to get out of this mess, in my view, is to start talking with each other. And approach the talks with respect and equality. Apply standards evenly. Just as Americans and British and Europeans and Ukrainians have ‘interests’, so too do the Russians and those living in the separatist oblasts. Start the dialogue and look for ways to find compromise.

As for your second part, the wiki entry on the ‘91 referendums, I’m fine with them and thus I fail to see the point of your question. People vote all the time. We in the “collective west” tend to declare that we think voting is a good thing - it’s even the’ be all and end all’ of our politics, almost as if it’s divinely ordained... until we don’t like the result! If the people vote for Salvador Allende then never mind that vote and send in the hit squads! You voted for Hezbollah??? Sanctions for you! Catalonian independence? No way! Voted for Trump? Nah, Putin did it! Voted for Biden? Surely it must fraud! Voted in an oblast referendum - it’s a sham! And sanction the observers!

By all means if (as Elon Musk suggests) the votes ought to be held again as part of a peace process, then be my guest. Hell, if they want to have a referendum every 5-10 years to go back and forth at will, you’ll get no objection from me either.

[applepie2]

Well, first Ukraine invaded the LNR and DNR which had referendums declaring their independence from Ukraine on May 11, 2014. Russia recognized the independence of these republics on Feb 21st, 2022, and on February 24th agreed to their request for military aid in accordance with Article 51 of the UN charter, and in doing so, invaded Ukraine. Several days ago Ukraine lobbed one (or possibly) several missile into Poland which, if done on purpose, may constitute an invasion, but Poland thus far seems to believe it to be an isolated incident and likely accidental. But I bow to Jampie’s expertise that they had to have had their system set on ‘surface to surface mode’ for that to have happened, so maybe he’s right to imply that Ukraine did it on purpose.

So it would be OK for Scotland to unilaterally hold a referendum, and if it was in favour of leaving the UK (though some would probably ignore it as invalid) it would be OK for Sturgeon to invite the EU to invade the UK? Though I have some sympathy with Scots who don’t want to be ruled from Westminster, that’s no excuse whatsoever for starting a war.

[i961pie]

The majority of people in Donbas disagree and believe that Ukraine invaded them and is killing their innocent people. As of Feb 21st, if not long before, so did the Russian state. Now here we are. What’s the plan?

How can Ukraine invade their own country?

[i961pie]

To the person who posted the ‘congrats’ post I say nothing as I’m not in the habit of talking to myself.

But if you mean to ask what I think of my post - I stand by every word of it. The people of Donetsk and the other oblasts have been attacked and/or suppressed by fascists for over 8 years. Given the crumbling state of the AFU during this time of the war, they were very heavily bolstered by ultranationalist regiments who tattoo themselves with swastikas and other Nazi insignia, goose step and Nazi salute regularly, pay homage to the leader of their historical nationalist extermination programs, and openly declare that they still want to cleans Ukraine of non-pure Ukrainians. Nothing sickens me more than Nazis who, by their very ideology, have no concept of fairness and consistency but who’s ideas are instead purely based on a warped concept of “us” being better than “them”.

The European leadership class has readily gotten into bed with these ideologues for whatever reasons I can only speculate: some of them are probably bought off (corruption), others are ideologues themselves and still have a Russophobic Cold War mentality, and all of them seem to have an inherent need to bend the knee to their American masters. As I said - they see it as a geopolitical game. No doubt they might be between a rock and a hard place, because if they don’t then the Americans (and British?) will blow up the infrastructure that their own friends and allies depend on. As Macron is now realizing: the Americans are indeed “some friend”.

But most of all the European leadership class thought they’d be able support the Nazis and punish Russia without any consequences to themselves. They proudly boast that they’ve levelled on Russia the toughest sanctions ever known and then awaited the collapse of the Russian economy. But that didn’t happen! Now they’re complaining that Russia is “weaponizing energy” or “weaponizing food and fertilizers”because the continent is rapidly de-industrializing, electricity and heating bills are soaring, rolling black-outs are expected, food prices are through the roof and recession is imminent (Jeremy *unt says you’re already in one!). Seriously? In a game of chess you’re supposed to think a number of moves ahead. Well, how many moves ahead was this all planned? What went wrong? As British rail is fond of saying; was it the wrong kind of snow?

Meanwhile the Americans are taking your industry, taking your brainiacs, and giving you back LNG at four times the price. Don’t worry, Jampie says, Europe will just leapfrog gas and coal altogether and go straight to renewables! Just like the Ukrainians, European citizens are being used as pawns and cannon fodder in what the Americans see as a geopolitical game.

As Kissinger said: America has no permanent friends or enemies, only national interests.

Other people have interests too. But as Orban said, so far the Europeans have shot themselves in the lungs.

The best way to get out of this mess, in my view, is to start talking with each other. And approach the talks with respect and equality. Apply standards evenly. Just as Americans and British and Europeans and Ukrainians have ‘interests’, so too do the Russians and those living in the separatist oblasts. Start the dialogue and look for ways to find compromise.

As for your second part, the wiki entry on the ‘91 referendums, I’m fine with them and thus I fail to see the point of your question. People vote all the time. We in the “collective west” tend to declare that we think voting is a good thing - it’s even the’ be all and end all’ of our politics, almost as if it’s divinely ordained... until we don’t like the result! If the people vote for Salvador Allende then never mind that vote and send in the hit squads! You voted for Hezbollah??? Sanctions for you! Catalonian independence? No way! Voted for Trump? Nah, Putin did it! Voted for Biden? Surely it must fraud! Voted in an oblast referendum - it’s a sham! And sanction the observers!

By all means if (as Elon Musk suggests) the votes ought to be held again as part of a peace process, then be my guest. Hell, if they want to have a referendum every 5-10 years to go back and forth at will, you’ll get no objection from me either.

Why use one word when a thousand will do?😋 What are you trying to do bore everyone into submission?

[andy6025]

How can Ukraine invade their own country?

See my reply to Applepie from yesterday back on page 62 of this Fred.

[i961pie]

See my reply to Applepie from yesterday back on page 62 of this Fred.

Once was enough

[andy6025]

Why use one word when a thousand will do?😋 What are you trying to do bore everyone into submission?

I certainly respect that not everyone finds this topic interesting or each other’s perspectives agreeable. You are free to stop reading any time.

[andy6025]

So it would be OK for Scotland to unilaterally hold a referendum, and if it was in favour of leaving the UK (though some would probably ignore it as invalid) it would be OK for Sturgeon to invite the EU to invade the UK? Though I have some sympathy with Scots who don’t want to be ruled from Westminster, that’s no excuse whatsoever for starting a war.

Ok, so in this hypothetical scenario Scotland votes for independence from the UK, the remainder of the UK invades to squash the separatists and then Scotland appeals to outside forces for military assistance?

I’m sure plenty of people would find it acceptable to give Scotland military assistance in such a scenario, which could even include invading London.

I would certainly hope that they would come to a negotiated settlement prior to that happening though, and if it didn’t then I hope they would find their way to the table sooner rather than later.

At risk of boring the other guy, I think what your question comes down to is whether or not we believe people have the right to self-identify. Personally I believe that they do. And, being consistent, I hold that view towards the Québécois as well.

[applepie2]

Ok, so in this hypothetical scenario Scotland votes for independence from the UK, the remainder of the UK invades to squash the separatists and then Scotland appeals to outside forces for military assistance?

I’m sure plenty of people would find it acceptable to give Scotland military assistance in such a scenario, which could even include invading London.

I would certainly hope that they would come to a negotiated settlement prior to that happening though, and if it didn’t then I hope they would find their way to the table sooner rather than later.

At risk of boring the other guy, I think what your question comes down to is whether or not we believe people have the right to self-identify. Personally I believe that they do. And, being consistent, I hold that view towards the Québécois as well.

I demand independence for Apple Pie House (and the garden too). International recognition of my sovereignty is irrelevant.

[andy6025]

I demand independence for Apple Pie House (and the garden too). International recognition of my sovereignty is irrelevant.

Go for it! Let us know how you get on.