O/T:- Ukraine [Incorporating 'Congrats to Russia' thread]

[Old_pie]

I’ve answered many of your questions. Now it’s your turn to answer one for me,

Take a quick look at this article from the NYT about an election in Iraq. What do you see in the photo? Would you also describe that election to be “at gunpoint”? Do you think it’s election results were legit? And try to be consistent.

https://archive.ph/H3LTm

I'm sorry but if you can't see the difference we are not talking the same language.

[andy6025]

I'm sorry but if you can't see the difference we are not talking the same language.

Ok, so where’s all the footage of these people voting in their flats with guns in their faces?

Surely in the days of phone cameras at least one person set up a hidden phone to video this outrage, no? These regions combined have over a million homes.

The only footage I’ve seen is one commonly circulated clip of an armed guard preceding an election worker carrying ballot box up a tower block staircase.

Of course from Ukrainian officials from the Ukrainian side you can read horror stories of people having their doors kicked in and the like, but where is it? I can’t believe that nobody has been able to capture it on camera.

But to answer your question, do a rerun any way you like. Let the people decide. Surely you wouldn’t have a problem with that, would you?

[Jampie]

Ok, so where’s all the footage of these people voting in their flats with guns in their faces?

Surely in the days of phone cameras at least one person set up a hidden phone to video this outrage, no? These regions combined have over a million homes.

The only footage I’ve seen is one commonly circulated clip of an armed guard preceding an election worker carrying ballot box up a tower block staircase.

Of course from Ukrainian officials from the Ukrainian side you can read horror stories of people having their doors kicked in and the like, but where is it? I can’t believe that nobody has been able to capture it on camera.

But to answer your question, do a rerun any way you like. Let the people decide. Surely you wouldn’t have a problem with that, would you?

Russia first.

Each oblast in Russia gets a UN controlled referendum after NATO invades and controls the territory.

This is what you are proposing for Ukraine. Fair, yes?

[andy6025]

Russia first.

Each oblast in Russia gets a UN controlled referendum after NATO invades and controls the territory.

This is what you are proposing for Ukraine. Fair, yes?

Once again the Jamside Story forges its own unique characterization that absolutely nobody else is pushing.

Can I ask you to be a little thoughtful in your questions though? Given my already stated position on referendums anywhere and everywhere, can’t you already guess my answer for this one?

[frenchmagpie]

Once again the Jamside Story forges its own unique characterization that absolutely nobody else is pushing.

Can I ask you to be a little thoughtful in your questions though? Given my already stated position on referendums anywhere and everywhere, can’t you already guess my answer for this one?

mmm you're wrong again. Everyone can see the problem in your arguement. Who do you suggest moves in to Catalonia and Spain and devastates the country and slaughters the civilian population. I don't think the Franco-Catalans are up for it.

[Jampie]

Once again the Jamside Story forges its own unique characterization that absolutely nobody else is pushing.

Can I ask you to be a little thoughtful in your questions though? Given my already stated position on referendums anywhere and everywhere, can’t you already guess my answer for this one?

No. Answer please?

[andy6025]

No. Answer please?

If independence referendums in every Russian oblast are part of a peace settlement, then I have no objection - even if they ‘go first’.

But I doubt you have any serious takers in NATO though for a NATO invasion of Russia like you proposed, or even any of them remotely suggesting it as a condition of settlement. It seems to be pure Jamside Land fantasy story.

[Jampie]

If independence referendums in every Russian oblast are part of a peace settlement, then I have no objection - even if they ‘go first’.

But I doubt you have any serious takers in NATO though for a NATO invasion of Russia like you proposed, or even any of them remotely suggesting it as a condition of settlement. It seems to be pure Jamside Land fantasy story.

Not sure if you're being intentionally obtuse, or if it's unintentional. Either way, we both know your sad attempts to mock me are because you are incapable of forming a substantive rebuttal to a single point I've made in this thread.

Russia invaded Ukraine and then held a "referendum". There will never be any serious (majority or otherwise) international recognition of that. It really is that simple.

And your talk of peace talks is utter nonsense as usual. Putin's mumbling about peace talks because he's losing. But there's unlikely to be any agreement, for the following reasons:

1. Russia will insist on a ceasefire while "peace talks" take place because it is losing, which Ukraine won't accept (and shouldn't)
2. Ukraine will insist (rightly) on the return of all their land and people, which Russia could absolutely accept but Putin cannot
3. Ukraine will also insist on joining some kind of security alliance with the west, which Putin can't accept because "peace talks" are nothing but a delay-and-rebuild-your-army tactic for him.

There's probably a dozen other impasses but those will be the early sticking points.

If Russia withdraws from Ukraine the "peace talks" will begin quite naturally after that. Otherwise, the war will continue. On its present trajectory it might drag on for years, but eventually Russia will be forced out. It's possible at some point they will grind Ukraine to a stalemate, at which point Ukraine might be willing to negotiate.

A complete Russian military collapse is another unlikely scenario that's probably, nevertheless, more likely than a stalemate.

But until such time as Ukraine wants to negotiate, nobody from the west should be trying to force them into it. And Russia's absolutely in no position to do so.