O/T:- Ukraine [Incorporating 'Congrats to Russia' thread]

[andy6025]

Russia first.

Each oblast in Russia gets a UN controlled referendum after NATO invades and controls the territory.

This is what you are proposing for Ukraine. Fair, yes?

Once again the Jamside Story forges its own unique characterization that absolutely nobody else is pushing.

Can I ask you to be a little thoughtful in your questions though? Given my already stated position on referendums anywhere and everywhere, can’t you already guess my answer for this one?

[frenchmagpie]

Once again the Jamside Story forges its own unique characterization that absolutely nobody else is pushing.

Can I ask you to be a little thoughtful in your questions though? Given my already stated position on referendums anywhere and everywhere, can’t you already guess my answer for this one?

mmm you're wrong again. Everyone can see the problem in your arguement. Who do you suggest moves in to Catalonia and Spain and devastates the country and slaughters the civilian population. I don't think the Franco-Catalans are up for it.

[Jampie]

Once again the Jamside Story forges its own unique characterization that absolutely nobody else is pushing.

Can I ask you to be a little thoughtful in your questions though? Given my already stated position on referendums anywhere and everywhere, can’t you already guess my answer for this one?

No. Answer please?

[andy6025]

No. Answer please?

If independence referendums in every Russian oblast are part of a peace settlement, then I have no objection - even if they ‘go first’.

But I doubt you have any serious takers in NATO though for a NATO invasion of Russia like you proposed, or even any of them remotely suggesting it as a condition of settlement. It seems to be pure Jamside Land fantasy story.

[Jampie]

If independence referendums in every Russian oblast are part of a peace settlement, then I have no objection - even if they ‘go first’.

But I doubt you have any serious takers in NATO though for a NATO invasion of Russia like you proposed, or even any of them remotely suggesting it as a condition of settlement. It seems to be pure Jamside Land fantasy story.

Not sure if you're being intentionally obtuse, or if it's unintentional. Either way, we both know your sad attempts to mock me are because you are incapable of forming a substantive rebuttal to a single point I've made in this thread.

Russia invaded Ukraine and then held a "referendum". There will never be any serious (majority or otherwise) international recognition of that. It really is that simple.

And your talk of peace talks is utter nonsense as usual. Putin's mumbling about peace talks because he's losing. But there's unlikely to be any agreement, for the following reasons:

1. Russia will insist on a ceasefire while "peace talks" take place because it is losing, which Ukraine won't accept (and shouldn't)
2. Ukraine will insist (rightly) on the return of all their land and people, which Russia could absolutely accept but Putin cannot
3. Ukraine will also insist on joining some kind of security alliance with the west, which Putin can't accept because "peace talks" are nothing but a delay-and-rebuild-your-army tactic for him.

There's probably a dozen other impasses but those will be the early sticking points.

If Russia withdraws from Ukraine the "peace talks" will begin quite naturally after that. Otherwise, the war will continue. On its present trajectory it might drag on for years, but eventually Russia will be forced out. It's possible at some point they will grind Ukraine to a stalemate, at which point Ukraine might be willing to negotiate.

A complete Russian military collapse is another unlikely scenario that's probably, nevertheless, more likely than a stalemate.

But until such time as Ukraine wants to negotiate, nobody from the west should be trying to force them into it. And Russia's absolutely in no position to do so.

[andy6025]

Time will tell if you’re right or if it was all a meaningless waste of lives and money.

[Jampie]

Time will tell if you’re right or if it was all a meaningless waste of lives and money.

I'm quite certain this whole adventure is already a meaningless waste of lives and money.

But let's not forget whose waste it is. If Russia could depose Putin tomorrow and pull out we'd all be a lot better off.

[andy6025]

I'm quite certain this whole adventure is already a meaningless waste of lives and money.

But let's not forget whose waste it is. If Russia could depose Putin tomorrow and pull out we'd all be a lot better off.

Russia depose Putin and put in who? You think his replacement will be ‘western friendly’? Think again. You’d undoubtedly get a hard liner to take his place. You think Putin is authoritarian? Lol. He’s a legalistic technocrat. Even the western dream boy Navalny says Crimea belongs to Russia.