O/T:- The NHS strike - for or against?

[slack_pie]

There's plenty of people on lower pay or lower incomes than NHS workers, rail staff, teachers etc. If these strikes end up forcing inflation up even further, the vulnerable will suffer more. Everybody wants or needs more money, the people who are shouting the loudest in their demands will no doubt mostly be the same people who were cheering on the lockdowns and furlough etc. that are largely responsible for the mess.

This perfectly sums up my view. Everyone is less well off than a year ago thanks to the bonkers response to COVID. It's impossible for everyone's wages to keep up with inflation without causing more inflation. The average wage for a nurse is £35k or so. Is that really too low to live on?

[slack_pie]

It always amazes me that people swallow Tory bull without questioning it. Why do you think giving pay rises to public sector workers will cause inflation? What will increase in price as a result?

Because the money has to come from somewhere. So that either means cuts elsewhere, higher taxes for you and me, or creating money out of thin air, which is what they did during COVID. They inflated the money supply to cover all the people forced out of work, which made everyone worse off. So, to answer your question as to what will increase in price as a result: everything.

If staff from the NHS, Royal Mail, or the railway networks get more money, everyone else will be less well off one way or another. The question is, why should these particular groups of people get preferential treatment during a time when everyone is suffering? Obviously the reason is because they have unions, which allow them to strong-arm the government by using the general public's suffering as leverage.

One more thing: don't we all agree to the terms and conditions of employment agreements when we sign them? Unless it is explicitly stated in a contract that pay will keep up with inflation, what legal right does an employee have to expect otherwise?

[Notts78]

Because the money has to come from somewhere. So that either means cuts elsewhere, higher taxes for you and me, or creating money out of thin air, which is what they did during COVID. They inflated the money supply to cover all the people forced out of work, which made everyone worse off. So, to answer your question as to what will increase in price as a result: everything.

If staff from the NHS, Royal Mail, or the railway networks get more money, everyone else will be less well off one way or another. The question is, why should these particular groups of people get preferential treatment during a time when everyone is suffering? Obviously the reason is because they have unions, which allow them to strong-arm the government by using the general public's suffering as leverage.

One more thing: don't we all agree to the terms and conditions of employment agreements when we sign them? Unless it is explicitly stated in a contract that pay will keep up with inflation, what legal right does an employee have to expect otherwise?

My point exactly. Nurses in the NHS know what they are signing up for. They know the pay. They know the hours and commitment needed. It’s not as though nurses are asked to work 60 hours a week and are not paid appropriately - they are. They are paid a basic. They are paid extra for nights, Saturday pay and Sunday pay. They are also paid overtime. They get paid for the hours they put in. And if over time etc is not available, they can do banked (agency) work for the NHS. I don’t buy in to this can’t afford to live BS… you often hear that nurses/doctors work all the hours possible, sometimes without a break. So what are they spending there money on?

My view is that the NHS is on its knees. If NHS staff are successful and get the demands they want, at what cost? They might be better off but the rest of us will be picking up the tab. The NHS is at a point that’s unsustainable and as such is ripe to be fully privatised or at least in part. Then what?

Nurses etc need to be careful what they wish for.

[DomdomPie]

Definitely with the nurses on this one. Low pay is contributing to thousands of nurses leaving the NHS, leaving wards either short staffed or reliant on agency nurses. NHS Trusts spend billions on agency workers every year, so they’re constantly chasing their tails in terms of spiralling costs and deteriorating services. We need a strong government to step in and make a stand on this: if we value NHS nurses then they need to be paid accordingly. It may cost more in the short term but a well staffed and functioning NHS will only benefit our economy and society in the long run. This should be number one priority coming out of a pandemic where NHS workers were rightly applauded for their amazing service to this country.

[Elite_Pie]

How on earth a nurse on £32,000 needs the use of a food bank I will never know. I been in hospital more times than I care to remember and can tell you not all nurses are great at their job. I found it laughable that any interview of striking NHS staff on Wednesday was hearing them say it was all about staffing levels and patient care and not about their wage demands, what a load of bull.

You couldn't be more wrong. This strike is about staffing levels and being able to do their job properly just as much as money. Their goodwill has been taken for granted for over a decade because the Tories thought they wouldn't strike. Their shameful neglect of the NHS has pushed them over the edge, and all this was happening long before Covid.

[Elite_Pie]

My point exactly. Nurses in the NHS know what they are signing up for. They know the pay. They know the hours and commitment needed. It’s not as though nurses are asked to work 60 hours a week and are not paid appropriately - they are. They are paid a basic. They are paid extra for nights, Saturday pay and Sunday pay. They are also paid overtime. They get paid for the hours they put in.

That is just not true. Firstly, nurses didn't sign up to be understaffed. It's happening more and more, and it's the main reason so many are leaving the profession. They are being put in a position where they can't do the job they signed up to do because they are often trying to do two jobs. And if you think they get paid for the hours they put in, you are living in cloud cuckoo land. I'll give you a real example when I get time.

[sinophile]

Since we are going to get into an economic discussion of the affects of a pay increase for NHS staff, consider what would happen to the actual money they receive. The very basic answer is that they would spend it (their marginal propensity to consume is very high). When they spend it they pay VAT. There is a boost to retailers in increased trade, they pay tax, they also order more of the goods they sell, which boosts production in manufacturing. This leads to an increase in employment (existing workers might be paid more. Private sector pay rises are roughly 2 to 3 times more than public sector workers). These are known as multiplier effects.The estimate of the amount the exchequer would get back from any pay increase is 81%. Inflation only occurs when the money supply is not matched by an increase in economic activity. What people also overlook is that a 10% pay rise is not matched by a 10% increase in the money supply. It is a much smaller proportion. A 10% pay increase would cost £3.4bn on paper, but only actually be £660m when the above is taken into account.

The money supply is around £3 trillion. An increase of £660m is a drop in the ocean and would have barely any effect on inflation.

[GranthamPie]

£30 billion on a Covid Track and Trace App, developed by Tory mates of mates… never worked.

£14 billion on PPE, supplied by “VIP” Tory mates of mates… unfit for purpose and now lying in shipping containers on disused airfields across the country.

£16 billion lost to criminals for “job retention schemes” and furlough during covid… immediately written off by Sunak (strange that)

£30 billion lost to the country after the Truss/Kwarteng budget… including millions of pensions. Has anyone had an updated pension statement lately?… I have… It’s lost thousands!

I won’t even mention the loss of revenue to businesses in this country during the botched Brexit… tens and tens of billions.

So, during the last 4 years, the Tories (“don’t trust Labour with the economy”) have managed to spaff over £100 billion up a wall.

They then have the audacity to tell ordinary workers that they must not call for wage increases as this will fuel inflation!… whilst relaxing rules on banks and bankers bonuses !

Yes… I know my enemy

[magpie_mania]

They do gat more holidays than anybody else, and if a flake off snow falls get more time off

I know enough people over the years , that went to school or university that ended up with poor or low jobs, to know most of what teachers teach is useless , as i said just another money maker to pay for state of the art college buildings and teachers wages etc

I have been on here plenty just recently - its you that have disappeared, or was that when Nolan was there and you said you never watch a match whilst he was manager

Sorry mate, wrong person.

I would never not go to watch a game because of who the manager is (would be difficult if it were Steve Evans though!).

The teachers I know (well) spend a considerable time in the holidays preparing for the next term etc. I can only say it as I see it.

[magpie_mania]

Paid more I say. Especially after the ordeal when covid hit us. Nurses etc were amazing and now get get sh1t on

While I am in sympathy in some ways, I simply don't believe those on the TV who have said they could be paid more by working in a supermarket.