O/T. All these strikes

[howdydoo]

Thing that's annoying. When the pay reviews have given figures over the past the unions are happy with them. Last year they received just over 3% whilst inflation was below that. 2020 they received 1.7%. Again inflation was below this. When the review board published the figures the inflation was below the offer. Ots a bit changing the goal posts to suit imo. Plus they spout the 4% offer. They failed to say the 4%offer is the mid/higher paid nurses. The lower paid staff. Porters, intern, cleaners ect are offered 9.2%...

Lower paid staff are protected to a degree with the increase to the national living wage in April which will be 9.7%

[animallittle3]

But according to the Office Of National Statistics wages haven't grown in real terms since the financial crash .

So you can pretty see when you get a huge spike in inflation as we've witnessed of late then this was the thing that finally broke the camels back .

This has absolutely nothing to do with union militants , greed or whatever it is people use to play these things down .

When enough is enough then you see what's getting played out across the sectors we are seeing .

Clearly when there's a capability to fight back then people in that position are going to take it .

These decisions aren't taken lightly , the vast majority want to go to work , come home , pay their bills and treat the family at the weekend .

Something in the system has clearly gone wrong and it's yet to be corrected and now things have come to a head .

I've actually no dog in this fight thankfully so I'm not speaking from this position .

I just got a 12% pay increase , our yearly bonus is due next month and it's generous , I'm alright but I'm extremely lucky and not everyone is right now .

I'm not cheering from the sidelines either like some middle class North London Marxist because I know how hard it is to take industrial action and what it involves , many of these half wits who frequent YouTube media channels ain't a Scooby doo and would crumble the first time the internet was turned off .

This is happening out there clearly for good reason because we haven't seen this since the fag end of the 70's .

[howdydoo]

You have some valid points but it’s clear you have an us vs them mentality. People need to pull together.

We’ve awarded a % increase + a lump sum increase at our place. Why??? To ensure people have got job in 5 years time. It represents a 10%+ increase across the board next year. Meanwhile energy costs have increased x 2/3 fold and suppliers are increasing prices, left right and centre.

Maybe companies should be held accountable if they pay their execs silly money and don’t make a profit. Maybe profits should be distributed amongst the workforce if a company makes windfall profits. Maybe the workforce and unions should accept wages could go up or down depending on performance and not everything negotiated 10 years ago (eg pensions) are guaranteed for life.

Don’t Royal Mail workers own around 10% of the companies shares??

We’re entering a recession and it’s going to be tough.

[animallittle3]

You have some valid points but it’s clear you have an us vs them mentality. People need to pull together.

We’ve awarded a % increase + a lump sum increase at our place. Why??? To ensure people have got job in 5 years time. It represents a 10%+ increase across the board next year. Meanwhile energy costs have increased x 2/3 fold and suppliers are increasing prices, left right and centre.

Maybe companies should be held accountable if they pay their execs silly money and don’t make a profit. Maybe profits should be distributed amongst the workforce if a company makes windfall profits. Maybe the workforce and unions should accept wages could go up or down depending on performance and not everything negotiated 10 years ago (eg pensions) are guaranteed for life.

Don’t Royal Mail workers own around 10% of the companies shares??

We’re entering a recession and it’s going to be tough.

If it comes across as a Us v Them attitude it's probably because experience tells me that personally at least that's how it's rolled when it comes to pay .

The actual act of negotiation requires two bodies who in reality are competing and looking to obtain the best deal for the bodies they represent .

How else could it play out ?

Don't get me wrong if inflation is running at 2% and pay demands are coming in at 15% then that's simply laughable and deserves the contempt it deserves .

In the past I've sat with management and we've worked together to try to keep the business viable and profitable .

Coming out and seeing colleagues of years standing and knowing they aren't going to see the month out ain't nice .

To be honest I'm glad to be out of all that now , times like these remind you that lives are real , people have families and mortgages and bills to pay and thank feck it ain't me in the thick of it .

Industrial action can be devastating and have an enormous impact on relationships and many other things .

Which tells me there's bloody good reason for them to be taking place because some of em are 6 months down the line .

[howdydoo]

In the past I've sat with management and we've worked together to try to keep the business viable and profitable .

Just doesn’t happen that way. What skills do you possess that’s going to decide whether a business is viable or not? You’re there to represent and protect your members no matter what. Who cares how bad they are.

If you had the necessary skills you’d be running the company.

One thing I will give you is that the majority of managers in these big businesses are as deluded as you are. No offense intended.

[ragingpup]

In the past I've sat with management and we've worked together to try to keep the business viable and profitable .

Just doesn’t happen that way. What skills do you possess that’s going to decide whether a business is viable or not? You’re there to represent and protect your members no matter what. Who cares how bad they are.

If you had the necessary skills you’d be running the company.

One thing I will give you is that the majority of managers in these big businesses are as deluded as you are. No offense intended.

Interesting discussion and thanks both for that. Sounds like howdy you feel that from an employee or union rep you can't even contemplate that such a person can't be sophisticated enough to appreciate the complexities of running a business. There are indeed some worker reps that are 'show boaters' and more interested in keeping their own popularity and public image but in my experience, worker reps are quite well researched on the company profile and not willing to wreck the company with their pay demands.

I've been on both ends, a union rep and now a senior manager in a company that can only afford to pay 4% increase to our staff due to some of the overhead increases you mention. But with the worker reps I deal with, I never get a sense that they are being unrealistic in their attempts to negotiate better pay. However, the harsh reality is that as employers, trying to get the best employees, they are right to remind me and our directors that we are likely to lose our best staff to competitors and that is unfortunately what is happening in a market in which we struggle against many 'big boys'. Fair play to them, we are always very explicit in that we can only pay what we can afford, but we pay the best we can.

No offence intended(but will likely be taken, sorry!) but you come over as very arrogant in thinking that worker reps can't/don't possess the skills to decide whether a business is successful or not. You seem much more obviously eager to maintain the us v them relationship that you accuse animal of having. And the one thing that bosses, politicians and union leaders all need now is an ability to empathise with the pov of each other and compromise.

[Grist_To_The_Mill]

In the past I've sat with management and we've worked together to try to keep the business viable and profitable .

Just doesn’t happen that way. What skills do you possess that’s going to decide whether a business is viable or not? You’re there to represent and protect your members no matter what. Who cares how bad they are.

If you had the necessary skills you’d be running the company.

One thing I will give you is that the majority of managers in these big businesses are as deluded as you are. No offense intended.

There’s a lot of truth in what you say, but viability of companies depends on the opposition in the same sector. Sometimes no amount of management and worker cooperation can save a company.

Postal workers are on dangerous ground because bulk users of Royal Mail parcels will move to other delivery agents and once gone might not return.

The others though are trading sympathy that will dribble away as the strikes get longer. We are already seeing a shift of attitude with the train drivers as folks are getting fed up with it even though they probably have a genuine grievance

[CTMilller]

In the past I've sat with management and we've worked together to try to keep the business viable and profitable .

Just doesn’t happen that way. What skills do you possess that’s going to decide whether a business is viable or not? You’re there to represent and protect your members no matter what. Who cares how bad they are.

If you had the necessary skills you’d be running the company.

One thing I will give you is that the majority of managers in these big businesses are as deluded as you are. No offense intended.

I broadly agree with Howdy on this but there is value in having employee/union representation at senior levels. It's not so much about their role in keeping a business viable and profitable; it's more about building an element of trust and understanding and developing a relationship that isn't just about confrontation across the negotiating table.

In Germany the Betriebsrat - the Works Council fulfills this role and generally it works and minimises the risk of industrial disputes.

I worked for several years for Rolls Royce Plc and was quite involved in the various initiatives to formally work with unions globally along these lines. I would say it created a positive effect. Yes, there was an element of lip service being paid to the process by the senior management group - and they certainly weren't involving the unions in strategic decision making and planning - but by and large the kimono was opened fairly wide in providing access to what was happening and planned for the future and individual relationships were developed.

[howdydoo]

Interesting discussion and thanks both for that. Sounds like howdy you feel that from an employee or union rep you can't even contemplate that such a person can't be sophisticated enough to appreciate the complexities of running a business. There are indeed some worker reps that are 'show boaters' and more interested in keeping their own popularity and public image but in my experience, worker reps are quite well researched on the company profile and not willing to wreck the company with their pay demands.

I've been on both ends, a union rep and now a senior manager in a company that can only afford to pay 4% increase to our staff due to some of the overhead increases you mention. But with the worker reps I deal with, I never get a sense that they are being unrealistic in their attempts to negotiate better pay. However, the harsh reality is that as employers, trying to get the best employees, they are right to remind me and our directors that we are likely to lose our best staff to competitors and that is unfortunately what is happening in a market in which we struggle against many 'big boys'. Fair play to them, we are always very explicit in that we can only pay what we can afford, but we pay the best we can.

No offence intended(but will likely be taken, sorry!) but you come over as very arrogant in thinking that worker reps can't/don't possess the skills to decide whether a business is successful or not. You seem much more obviously eager to maintain the us v them relationship that you accuse animal of having. And the one thing that bosses, politicians and union leaders all need now is an ability to empathise with the pov of each other and compromise.

If it comes over that way, so be it. You can faff around and pamper to people all day. We live in strange times. Workers pay does need to increase where possible and companies need to bear some of the burden short term. Especially if they’re profitable. They need to offer job security where possible.

On the other hand the unions need to play the game and stop politicising their demands because some of them will see their members go the same way as the miners did.

Fortunately I don’t have to deal with unions on a daily basis. When I’ve had to, it’s been painful. You speak as you find and in my experience I’ve found reps to be loud mouthed, uninformed and a bit thick to be honest.

I take Grist’s point about the Royal Mail. To a degree he’s right and I agree with what he says. I followed a few articles about Dave Ward and watched a couple of videos. It’s a strange one. The bloke articulates his points well. He’s been hankering for the postal service to be nationalised though. My understanding was that the business needs urgent reform because it’s losing a fortune. Take a look a little further back and the numbers and it seems they were making a fortune. Could be bunch of reasons. Looking in I don’t think anyone would argue against reform in Royal Mail because it needs it. What I didn’t like to read was that they want to make X thousands of people redundant yet employ thousands of non seasonal agency workers. Maybe there is room for discussions about the viability of the Royal Mail between unions and management if that’s their approach. It looks like it has to reinvent itself to compete.

Rishi Sunak is the real villain here. His furlough giveaway has truly shafted this country. How he’s ended up as prime minister is truly beyond me.

Have a good Christmas all.

[animallittle3]

In the past I've sat with management and we've worked together to try to keep the business viable and profitable .

Just doesn’t happen that way. What skills do you possess that’s going to decide whether a business is viable or not? You’re there to represent and protect your members no matter what. Who cares how bad they are.

If you had the necessary skills you’d be running the company.

One thing I will give you is that the majority of managers in these big businesses are as deluded as you are. No offense intended.

When times got extremely tough it's not the worst idea to have had a culture that welcomes ideas , many ideas were put forward by the members and did work in relation to saving costs and increased efficiency .

The people actually doing the job are often the best source of information although you don't have to have trade union recognition for this to happen , every company can create that kind of open door culture if the will is there .

" Protecting Members No Matter What "

That plays out in different ways , in tough times you have to agree with management that in order to protect some members others are going to lose their jobs , that's a fact of life .

There are decent managers and there are poor ones and there are poor trade union reps and decent ones , twas ever thus .

The company still exists to this day although I was let go twenty years ago , it's a shadow of its former self , it employed absolutely hundreds when I joined and today there are around 10 to 15 .

However what's interesting is that the remaining workers bought the company and saved it from total shutdown in the end .

Perhaps with a different culture that wouldn't have happened and maybe the lad running the paint plant 40 hours a week for a good few years knows more than some managers are willing to give him credit for .