Careless Tories!

[swaledale]

And yet as recently as 2008 the expectation was that (ironically) women could have that expectation and men could reasonably expect to retire at 65.

I’ll bow, as ever, to your greater financial knowledge however, and I honestly don’t mean this unpleasantly...but at approaching 69 and still working you are not typical for the following reasons.
1. You are running your own business and to that extent...calling the shots.
2. Your work is largely cerebral and requires little in terms of physical effort.
3. I suspect those such as accountants (and politicians) have either never known or (in your case given your agricultural upbringing) forgotten the demands of more physically demanding employment and yes...I include nurses, paramedics, the police, teachers and care home staff in that.

As I say...I don’t mean this nastily and I do appreciate your greater knowledge relating to the nation’s finances...however I don’t want to see a return to people working till they drop or having, at best, two or three years of retirement.

Its unaffordable says GP, yet the Uk is one of the lowest state pensions in the developed world, extending the retirement age isn't practical for a number of occupations as rA points out and IF governments had used NIC for what it was supposed to be for the affordable bit wouldn't ahve been an issue. There is indeed a case for means testing the state pension, and that would be a way of topping up those without private pension provision. But in the end its all a question of priorities and choices, again, looking at Scandinavian countries who seem to manage these matters much better than the UK, shows its entirely possible and affordable.

The whole scenario with private pension scenario has been badly managed for years and some very wealthy and not so wealthy people have benefitted from generous tax relief. Indeed I am one of those, though I do still pay tax now.

[ramAnag]

"Brexit and the next GE? We’ll see...but if the referendum were to be held again (I know it won’t be) do you honestly think you’d win?"

This raises an interesting temporal anomaly

If the referendum were to be held now, do you mean now with the public having knowledge of the fallout from having voted the way they did 6 years earlier, or what? If it was to be held now as if the last 6 years had not existed, then it likely would have had the same outcome, although the age demographic in those eligible to vote would have changed a bit and so maybe that would have flipped the decision to marginal remain.

Or do you mean, what would the outcome be if we had a second referendum in August to seek readmission? Always assuming that the EU would let us back in without unacceptable loss of previous privilege and standing?

If there were a "reverse the decision" referendum this year, then I imagine there would be majority support for re-entry, but if 2016 had never existed and the question was being posed in todays environment I'm not sure how the vote would go. Maybe there would be more support for a unified Europe following COVID and Russian invasion. Maybe in the current more difficult economic climate people would view the concept of leaving differently. But a lot of the issues voted for in 2016 by leavers are still with us and would still influence decision making. But its impossible to say as you cannot reverse time and wipe memories: politicians would still be around to lie and manipulate public opinion, maybe not th same ones, but certainly ones with voices

I should just write, ‘what MA said’, because that’s the reality.

However...it’s all hypothetical but, Tricky raised the issue of Brexit becoming a real issue at the next General Election. It may well be...but if I were a Brexiteer I wouldn’t be taking any comfort from that. Brexit has, over the last three of four years been largely discredited. The majority of those who voted for it and remain alive, if not exactly kicking, have recognised that they were conned...taken in by Johnson and Farage’s well funded lies.

Apart from the faintly ridiculous ‘Stop the Boats’ motif we hear little in support of Brexit these days. I’ve asked countless times on here for a single benefit of Brexit and, save for the dubious plus of preventing a USoE, none have been forthcoming.

Doubtless Farage will try and resurrect the argument, and his own political career, but I doubt it’ll work.

[swaledale]

How many wrinklies have passed since the referendum? The majority of 60+ voted leave. Far less of them now than there was. Further, there are lots of new voters who now have a vote as they are 18+ but were in the 11-17 age range back in 2016. The majority of the young are in favour of the EU.

Whatever the angle on the ballot. IMO, any new referendum, be that worded to overturn the 2016 vote or worded to apply to rejoin would see the UK heading back to EU membership.

It is inevitable that as time passes the groundswell of opinion will shift towards some form of closer relationship with the EU, indeed economic realities will require this to happen.

I do laugh when I hear the dimwits and other idiots claiming that somehow the Tories have failed to grasp the opportunities that Brexit offered. Yet when you ask them to explain exactly what these benefits or opportunities were that have been missed. funnily enough they can never give one concrete example, but waffle on about some vague concept that clearly doesn't exist except in the minds of the foolish.

I mean its clear now that virtually everything promised was either a lie or just wishful thinking. Its even funnier when one considers one of the main reasons was immigration and yes EU migrants have reduced considerably, but non EU migrants have increased, so we are sourcing our key labour requirements from outside europe.

Even the frothing over migrants crossing the channel, fails to recognise that these numbers are far lower than used to come by lorry and ferry!

[Geoff Parkstone]

I should just write, ‘what MA said’, because that’s the reality.

However...it’s all hypothetical but, Tricky raised the issue of Brexit becoming a real issue at the next General Election. It may well be...but if I were a Brexiteer I wouldn’t be taking any comfort from that. Brexit has, over the last three of four years been largely discredited. The majority of those who voted for it and remain alive, if not exactly kicking, have recognised that they were conned...taken in by Johnson and Farage’s well funded lies.

Apart from the faintly ridiculous ‘Stop the Boats’ motif we hear little in support of Brexit these days. I’ve asked countless times on here for a single benefit of Brexit and, save for the dubious plus of preventing a USoE, none have been forthcoming.

Doubtless Farage will try and resurrect the argument, and his own political career, but I doubt it’ll work.

Its not really a shock that we hear little of Brexit nowadays since it has already happened. Those that were in favour of it do not feel the need to continue the wrangle as they have got what they wanted. If Derby ever get promoted to the Premiership, we wont see fans banging on about wanting promotion will we, we've already got it.

So yes, there is little said in support of Brexit, same way as there is little said about the funeral of the Duke of Edinburgh. Its history.

The noise is coming from those who didn't get their own way, or did but since have realised that it wasn't what they wanted after all
.

After all, if you were a Brexiteer (and I think you secretly are, but under deep cover) why would you waste your time out marching with "Leave the EU" banners now - unless you were maybe Swedish.

[Andy_Faber]

The noise is coming from those who didn't get their own way

…and are poor losers

[ramAnag]

Its not really a shock that we hear little of Brexit nowadays since it has already happened. Those that were in favour of it do not feel the need to continue the wrangle as they have got what they wanted. If Derby ever get promoted to the Premiership, we wont see fans banging on about wanting promotion will we, we've already got it.

So yes, there is little said in support of Brexit, same way as there is little said about the funeral of the Duke of Edinburgh. Its history.

The noise is coming from those who didn't get their own way, or did but since have realised that it wasn't what they wanted after all
.

After all, if you were a Brexiteer (and I think you secretly are, but under deep cover) why would you waste your time out marching with "Leave the EU" banners now - unless you were maybe Swedish.

Did anyone say ‘we hear little of Brexit nowadays’?

I said ‘we hear little IN SUPPORT of Brexit these days’. We actually hear lots about Brexit these days...but most of it is damning.

As you say yourself the noise is either coming from those who lost (and were apparently right) and those who have ‘since realised it wasn’t what they wanted after all’. That was my point.

[swaledale]

…and are poor losers

Lets just examine that statement.

Those that wanted to remain in the Eu lost the referendum, yes we did. I believe the margin was 52% leave 48% remain.

There is also the little matter that just over 26% of the electorate actually voted for Brexit - hardly the "will" of the people, yes I accept more should have voted, but even so no matter how you spin it, its the will of those who voted, NOT the people and any policy that is implemented that isn't clearly backed by the majority of the electorate is going to be a failure.

Furthermore, there is ample proof that the information provided by the Leave campaign was inaccurate and in many instances complete lies, that £350 million on the side of the bus being just one example. But a number of examples can be provided for those who question this.

Then there is the dodgy funding arrangements of vote leave that has never been fully explained.

Now, the type of Brexit was never made explicit, indeed by the promises made by Brexit supporters, easy trade deal, virtually the same benefits outside the EU as in it, frictionless trade talk of a Norway style deal, etc etc, one would reasonably assume a "soft" Brexit was on the cards - and indeed would have been appropriate seeing as there wasn't an overwhelming mandate from the voters.

The UK could leave the political involvement in the EU, but retain access to single market and the customs union, no doubt a bespoke deal could have been negotiated on issues like free movement etc. But no the hard right cabal took over the Tory party and a hard Brexit with a piss poor deal (even now admitted by some Brexit supporting politicians and some business leaders who backed Brexit.) was negotiated.

It became clear that those who promoted and supported Brexit had no plan for implementing it and actually beyond meaningless slogans no idea what would happen. Farage, went as far as to say, if Brexit wasn't a success he would just leave the UK!

So if for example Derby had lost last nights match due to having a player wrongly sent off, denied a clear penalty and having two perfectly legitimate goals disallowed you presumably wouldn't be describing fans who protested about this as "poor losers"?

But aside from all that, if an action is taken that has proven not to be in the best interests of the country, indeed has actually damaged the country. Then the only perverse people are those who still claim that it was worthwhile and that people who want to re-join the EU or at least take steps to address the economic issues it has created by re-joining the single market and the customs union are poor losers!

At the moment you ahve Tory politicians going round and the only Brexit benefit they can point to is that the UK implemented the Covid vaccine a month earlier than the EU. Now this another clear lie, because for one, the UK when in the EU, had the power to approve a vaccine independently of the EU, Brexit didn't enable that, the Uk was always able to do it.

So yes if your a little bit dim, ( and also arrogant) you'd say those that talk about Brexit and argue about it has been a disaster are poor losers. But if you had any intelligence, you'd realise that IF Brexit even appeared to be a success, then there would be very little for Remainers to talk about. QED!

[swaledale]

Did anyone say ‘we hear little of Brexit nowadays’?

I said ‘we hear little IN SUPPORT of Brexit these days’. We actually hear lots about Brexit these days...but most of it is damning.

As you say yourself the noise is either coming from those who lost (and were apparently right) and those who have ‘since realised it wasn’t what they wanted after all’. That was my point.

Your wasting your time on this rA, these two jokers deliberately misinterpret everything thats said, I mean GP sometimes has something sensible to say, AF, in my view has the credibility of Thicky, just slightly more sophisticated (and thats not saying much) in the way he says it.

Its akin to saying, I was driving a car and made a right turn which was agreed by the majority in the car, this apparently is going to take the car over the cliff and kill all of us, but it was a democratic decision so its not either fair or practical to change it now!

In any case, the fact of the matter is it is becoming clear that closer ties with the EU are ***** to the Uk's economy, they will happen one way or another within the next 3 or 4 years. Most likely as soon as Labour has been elected IF they have a working majority.

I mean the country cannot be held to ransom by clueless gammons for much longer!!

[Ramshank72]

Talking of Brexit, I had a day trip to Ireland today, totally seamless, bravo to those who made the border issue work.

[ramAnag]

Your wasting your time on this rA, these two jokers deliberately misinterpret everything thats said, I mean GP sometimes has something sensible to say, AF, in my view has the credibility of Thicky, just slightly more sophisticated (and thats not saying much) in the way he says it.

Its akin to saying, I was driving a car and made a right turn which was agreed by the majority in the car, this apparently is going to take the car over the cliff and kill all of us, but it was a democratic decision so its not either fair or practical to change it now!

In any case, the fact of the matter is it is becoming clear that closer ties with the EU are ***** to the Uk's economy, they will happen one way or another within the next 3 or 4 years. Most likely as soon as Labour has been elected IF they have a working majority.

Can’t disagree with any of that...although, imo, ‘malicious’ may be a more appropriate word than ‘sophisticated’.