OT. The futures Bright, the Futures Brexit!!!

[swaledale]

I’m not actually advocating it, Swale...it just doesn’t really concern me. We carry so many other forms of ID and our movements are traceable in so many other ways these days that one more just doesn’t bother me and if it entitles one to vote and carries certain other information such as donor and blood group details etc it may actually be beneficial.
Not something I can get worked up about, although I wouldn’t support it being made compulsory to carry it at all times and produce it on demand.

That view is what the authoritarian government relies upon to pass legislation until one day you realise that actually whilst one particular piece of legislation didn't affect you a whole raft of other stuff did.

That goes back to my point about people not being sufficiently concerned about how certain actions of government has a negative impact, for me its important that whilst I may not be inconvenienced, I don't want to see large numbers of those already dumped on by society further disenfranchised.

One can like GP live in an ivory tower and care not for those affected, but if one has concerns for society as a whole and ones children, the negative effects of a large group of disenfranchised voters will become apparent. neither of us a rich enough I think to live completely separated from the wider society.

[ramAnag]

Putting barriers in the way of voting is not acceptable surely? We need to be addressing voter turn out getting those who don't vote to vote.

Agreed. This was my (non party political) point when I introduced this thread within a thread yesterday morning.

Much has been written on here since the Referendum about how we must value our democracy, but - imo - the real threats to our democracy are threefold. 1. The circumstantial disenfranchisement of a section of the electorate. 2. The ignorance and lack of interest shown by a proportion of the electorate. 3. The largely unchallenged dishonesty and disingenuousness displayed by too many individuals and organisations in the build up to elections/referenda.

[MadAmster]

MA: you mean tomatoes and cucumbers don't excrete ammonia or emit N2O? I'm shocked 😄😄

[Andy_Faber]

Please provide an example! Seeing as you repeatedly state something on here which I then prove not to be true and never address it, I won't hold my breath!

Your habit of ‘a recent survey said’ without provenance, or even just stating unfounded ‘facts’ is actually worse than Tricky’s scattergunning - at least tricky offers some ‘evidence’ to be refuted. All you’re doing is gaslighting, Just a suggestion which might even help reinforce your POV

[swaledale]

Says you sir.

It was done with no plan or thought of impacts on selected regions.
East Anglia for example. Overnight have been turned into replicas of Warsaw. Services swamped and over whelmed. Been there lately? I certainly have and understand. Housing swallowed up.

The fall in EU migrants? Not sure about that either. 6 million applied to stay ffs.
The outside EU migration is a government failing. Too many student visas and holiday visas, that were merely a cover to disappear into the country.
Control/criteria/restrictions should be at the heart of every countrys system.

NB, my bro in law works at RR. He was courted to go work in New Zealand
They were going through with it, but were shocked by the restrictions they would have to agree to.

Certain amount of funds at their disposal/ had to have medical cover/ couldn't claim off the state for 5 years/ criminal record free/ health screening and so on. Also, should the state say, they had failed to adhere to any rules imposed on them, then pay for their own deportation even if goods had to be seized. AND THEY FISHED FOR HIM!

Now compare that to what has/is walking into this country and reapply to your answer.

Actually I have, I worked a lot in East Anglia and its absolutely not a replica of Warsaw! I worked and stayed in Thetford, which has had a lot of eastern EU migration, its also has a lot of ex Londoners which is another story. But it in no way resembles and eastern european country, in fact I'd say it has a more varied retail and service sector than one would expect for a rural town and a lively economy supporting these.

I've worked in Boston too, where the anti Eu feeling is high. Yet in both those places these migrants came and worked in industry and agriculture, doing jobs that are equally available to the locals. Funny I talk to people in those areas now and they are struggling for labour! Such that many are/have reduced their business activity.

I know Great Yarmouth and its a typical run down seaside resort, on the way back up thanks to renewable energy industry. Parts of it, like Blackpool etc but again it aint especially dangerous and I've walked around it very late at night.

This guff about overwhelming services and homes is pure propaganda, EU migration has been a scapegoat for over a decade of under investment by this government in the NHS, in schools and certainly in housing, especially social/council housing is a fact. They have been happy to take the tax revenue paid by these immigrants, but haven't invested it in services.

But as I said and you have ignored, probably because it doesn't suit your anti foreigner play book, immigration has merely replaced a negative birth rate, if the level of births to residents had continued at the rate it was in the 1950's and 1960's, there would still be the issue of a growing population requiring services and homes.

Sorry the issue of overseas students supposedly overstaying their visas and staying here is a right wing myth, the percentage that do is less than 1% and the income they generate through university fees and helping to make this country a world leader in education and research is valuable. Still I guess we should cut that off if it means we can avoid a few thousand extra residents.

If a country's birth rate is below that required for replacement and the UK's is, then immigration is the only way to keep a balance between the older people (thats you and me) and younger people who do the jobs and pay the tax which supports pensions, health and personal care etc. Many studies have shown that migrants contribute positively economically, culturally and intellectually to this country.

All of us and that includes you and the millions who voted for Brexit, have and still do benefit from migration and I doubt many would want to experience living in a place that was stagnating economically (though ironically you are getting that at the moment).

Its a deliberate policy on the part of the Conservatives to run down public services, to create an economy that works for their very rich backers, it has suited them to blame the EU, to blame migrants.

As for New Zealands approach, well it will be interesting to see how they fare over the next decade, with birth rates plummeting around the world, I'm guessing they may well be revising their approach. I take it you would also welcome their approach to lockdowns? Its a totally different country to the Uk at the arse end of the world and a different economic base.

Your correct in the unplanned approach and lack of government investment to meet rising demand, but thats a government failing (of which there are many) it isn't going to be solved by Brexit and it isn't going to be solved by worsening the economic situation in the UK which Brexit is doing and will continue to do until we renegotiate more parts of the trade deal.

Again most of what you rail against, is either untrue, over exaggerated, or not down to the EU, but down to a failure of government. None of which Brexit will solve.

[Geoff Parkstone]

"...and yes theyc an apply (online only) for a Local Authority voter ID card, but are much less likely to do so."

Why are they less likely to? This suggests you feel that they can't be arsed to make the effort to vote? I don't understand your inferred prejudice here that minority groups are less likely to do what is necessary to vote. Next you'll be saying that eg Indians are less likely to want to walk to the polling station so that's unfair?

[MadAmster]

MA: you mean tomatoes and cucumbers don't excrete ammonia or emit N2O? I'm shocked ����

Following a Court case brought by environmental groups against the government, it became Law that nitrogen levels had to reduce by a certain amount by 2030, That case was a few years back. So far, the cabinet has failed to come up with a plan on how to do that which will get through either house.

The thoughts they have cover the following areas...

Reducing the number of livestock by up to 50%. They've allocated something like €25Bn to buy out farmers, preferably on a voluntary basis but if the volunteers don't add up to enough to reach the required reduction, they will use compulsory purchase. Reminder to TTR, there was, and is, no mention of cutting back on arable farming and greenhousery. In fact, some farmers are already moving from livestock to biological arable farming and getting subsidies to make the change.

Industrial concerns that belch out too much nitrogen and CO2 will be instructed to cut back on emissions. This morning, in anticipation of having to clean up their act, Tata Steel asked the government for a €1Bn subsidy in order to carry out the necessary changes......

The government has set a target of 100,000 new homes a year being built between now and 2040. The problem is that the heavy machinery used in building emits a lot of nitrogen through the burning of the diesel fuel they consume. Something like 4 out of every 10 building applications get turned down because the area already has too high a nitrogen level. The housing target won't get met.

[Trickytreesreds]

Actually I have, I worked a lot in East Anglia and its absolutely not a replica of Warsaw! I worked and stayed in Thetford, which has had a lot of eastern EU migration, its also has a lot of ex Londoners which is another story. But it in no way resembles and eastern european country, in fact I'd say it has a more varied retail and service sector than one would expect for a rural town and a lively economy supporting these.

I've worked in Boston too, where the anti Eu feeling is high. Yet in both those places these migrants came and worked in industry and agriculture, doing jobs that are equally available to the locals. Funny I talk to people in those areas now and they are struggling for labour! Such that many are/have reduced their business activity.

I know Great Yarmouth and its a typical run down seaside resort, on the way back up thanks to renewable energy industry. Parts of it, like Blackpool etc but again it aint especially dangerous and I've walked around it very late at night.

This guff about overwhelming services and homes is pure propaganda, EU migration has been a scapegoat for over a decade of under investment by this government in the NHS, in schools and certainly in housing, especially social/council housing is a fact. They have been happy to take the tax revenue paid by these immigrants, but haven't invested it in services.

But as I said and you have ignored, probably because it doesn't suit your anti foreigner play book, immigration has merely replaced a negative birth rate, if the level of births to residents had continued at the rate it was in the 1950's and 1960's, there would still be the issue of a growing population requiring services and homes.

Sorry the issue of overseas students supposedly overstaying their visas and staying here is a right wing myth, the percentage that do is less than 1% and the income they generate through university fees and helping to make this country a world leader in education and research is valuable. Still I guess we should cut that off if it means we can avoid a few thousand extra residents.

If a country's birth rate is below that required for replacement and the UK's is, then immigration is the only way to keep a balance between the older people (thats you and me) and younger people who do the jobs and pay the tax which supports pensions, health and personal care etc. Many studies have shown that migrants contribute positively economically, culturally and intellectually to this country.

All of us and that includes you and the millions who voted for Brexit, have and still do benefit from migration and I doubt many would want to experience living in a place that was stagnating economically (though ironically you are getting that at the moment).

Its a deliberate policy on the part of the Conservatives to run down public services, to create an economy that works for their very rich backers, it has suited them to blame the EU, to blame migrants.

As for New Zealands approach, well it will be interesting to see how they fare over the next decade, with birth rates plummeting around the world, I'm guessing they may well be revising their approach. I take it you would also welcome their approach to lockdowns? Its a totally different country to the Uk at the arse end of the world and a different economic base.

Your correct in the unplanned approach and lack of government investment to meet rising demand, but thats a government failing (of which there are many) it isn't going to be solved by Brexit and it isn't going to be solved by worsening the economic situation in the UK which Brexit is doing and will continue to do until we renegotiate more parts of the trade deal.

Again most of what you rail against, is either untrue, over exaggerated, or not down to the EU, but down to a failure of government. None of which Brexit will solve.

I aint doing a war and peace.
Which part of controlled and organised migration don't you understand?

[swaledale]

Your habit of ‘a recent survey said’ without provenance, or even just stating unfounded ‘facts’ is actually worse than Tricky’s scattergunning - at least tricky offers some ‘evidence’ to be refuted. All you’re doing is gaslighting, Just a suggestion which might even help reinforce your POV

Says you, who repeatedly uses anecdotal "evidence" to support a point your making! I mean even "good old" Lea Anderson is using this with his "I know people using foodbanks who I see in McDonalds 2 or 3 times a week!". Which begs the question how doe she know this? is he in McDonalds 2 or 3 times a week?

If your unable to undertake a spot of research to verify that which i refer to, I'm afraid that's your problem not mine.

You chose the wrong example here as well, seeing as GP had made a unsubstantiated comments in two posts (a habit of his) which I gave a chapter and verse response to and got zip, zero acknowledgement.

So in essence, your accusing me of doing something that you, GP and Tricky do all the time. If you think what I state as facts aren't facts, then do your research and prove it.

As for Tricky, whilst there is a grain of truth in some of what he says, most is the repetition of well worn phrases, fake news and hyperbole - as in East Anglia where towns have become replicas of Warsaw - that its my judgement that any person of reasonable intelligence, who takes notice of current affairs and who was above believing things that align with their own prejudices, would easily identify that which was false, counter factual or just plain xenophobic clap trap.

As rA has commentd, one of the issues facing democracy seems to be a dearth of understanding what is real and what is fake.
know what he says is largely fiction or indeed gross exaggeration

[MadAmster]

I aint doing a war and peace.
Which part of controlled and organised migration don't you understand?

Which part of no restrictions on arable farming and greenhousery don't you understand? It's only the livestock farming that will get hit, if they ever get their plans through Parliament.

There is a different issue for arable farmers Since March 1st 2023 they aren't allowed, by the EU, to "muckspread" within 3 metres of an irrigation channel as that is affecting the quality of the water supply.

Meanwhile, back in Brexitland, millions of gallons/tons of raw sewage are being pumped into rivers and the sea because, depending on who you believe, the water companies say they can't handle it all and Joe Public and the Environmentalists (good name for a band?) say it's because it saves them money and helps bump up shareholder dividends.

Personally, Joe Public seems more believable.