O/T:- Ukraine [Incorporating 'Congrats to Russia' thread]

[drillerpie]

Is this Wagner group for or aginst the invasion of Ukraine?

If they are purely mercenary then who's paying them?

If the West paid them enough would they actually side with Ukraine and help force Russia out?

They are not really for or against anything per se. You pay them to do the ugly stuff, and they do it.

The rank and file were mostly ex soldiers, recently 'reinforced' by tens of thousands of Russian prisoners given early release. Many of them died in the 'human wave' style attacks on Bakhmut, but they still have significant manpower, and a surprising array of weapons (there are apparently two Pantzir mobile anti aircraft systems in the Wagner convoy - 3 Russian helicopters and one fixed wing aircraft already shot down).

They are known as much for their efficiency as their cruelty, and have adopted the sledgehammer as their symbol during the Ukraine invasion. If you delve into the darker reaches of the internet you will be able to see why, although I wouldn't recommend it.

The leader of Wagner is a charismatic, iconoclastic, pragmatic, nut job who mixes aforementioned cruelty and vulgarity with quite a funny sense of humour. He has one way of speaking and that is very bluntly with a lot of expletives. It is easy to see how he could command the loyalty of his men.

Although he is in favour of the war, it seems to be in a OK, we're doing this, so we may as well do it properly" kind of way, rather than any ideological belief that Ukraine doesn't exist.

He is on the one hand a grotesque figure, but on the other seems to have a more realistic grasp of the situation on the ground. He has been responsible for extreme cruelty in Ukraine, but at the same time very complimentary about Ukrainian fighting spirit and effectiveness of the Ukrainian troops.

He has been on the ground in Bakhmut for months where he has spoken out against Russian incompetence and corruption, mocking the Russian military and elite.

A few weeks ago he captured a disused wine factory near Bakhmut and launched into a video monologue as he perused the thousands of bottles in the cellar. He waxed lyrical about how sacred private property is and promised his men wouldn't destroy or consume any of it. It looked like a coded message to oligarchs and that's when I started thinking he might try something like we're seeing now.

He's been calling out the high echelons of the Russian military for a while, but in the last few weeks more so, and in a more vitriolic way. Russia has been trying to reign him in, as they knew he was a loose cannon (no pun intended).

Yesterday, out of the blue, he went pretty much all in.

He released a video in which he said the war in Ukraine is BS, Ukraine wasn't genociding ethnic Russians in Donbass at all, only exchanging fire with Russian troops. There was no need for an escalation, the only reason it happened was Russian oligarchs and elite got greedy and wanted a bigger slice of the Ukranian pie. He said Russian MoD lies about its casualties and successes, war is not going very well at all, Russians dying in droves while top brass live lives of luxury. Says the plan was to take Kyiv and install a pro Russian puppet but poor judgement and execution by military.

Putin and the MoD did not take kindly to this, so they ordered an attack on his camp, after which Wagner retaliated by taking Rostov and set out on the road to Moscow.

[upthemaggies]

Glad I live in regional Australia I suppose.

The more realistic threat at this stage is probably a Chernobyl II type disaster at Zaporizhzhia, another good reason to be out of the way.

[drillerpie]

No idea how this might play out but.....

2021 - Russia has the most nuclear warheads in the world

2022 - Russia has the most nuclear warheads in the world

2023 - Russia has the most nuclear warheads in the world

Yes I am aware of that.

I don't consider it a good reason to let Russia do whatever it wants.

[BanjoPie]

No idea how this might play out but.....

2021 - Russia has the most nuclear warheads in the world

2022 - Russia has the most nuclear warheads in the world

2023 - Russia has the most nuclear warheads in the world

Yes but have they had all their deadly vaccine jabs - if so, no need to worry then!

[drillerpie]

Kadryov has apparently just sent his forces to Rostov.

He is the lunatic who controls the Chechen fiefdom, sorry Republic, whose troops were used as blocking units (ie kill anyone from your own side who tries to retreat) in the early part of the war. They were also responsible for a lot of the atrocities carried out in the early part of the invasion.

So now we have the prospect of three factions of Russian psychopaths killing each other and destroying each other's stuff on Russian soil. Excellent.

[SwalePie]

Yes but have they had all their deadly vaccine jabs - if so, no need to worry then!

Excellent!

[upthemaggies]

Yes but have they had all their deadly vaccine jabs - if so, no need to worry then!

Russia used a different type of vaccine. No idea if it will turn out to be any more or less safe. Like us they had no long term data for an emergency roll out of new technology. I think theirs might be considered a more traditional vaccine than Pfizer, but I stand to be corrected on that.

I wouldn't have brought this subject into the thread, so don't blame me.

[upthemaggies]

Yes I am aware of that.

I don't consider it a good reason to let Russia do whatever it wants.

No, but I wouldn't see it as a good reason either to celebrate them being pushed towards civil war - which may be a gross exaggeration, but who knows what has been set in motion over the last decade.

Almost everybody cheerleading this war on (pro or anti-west) with practically no voices calling for a peace process just doesn't sit well with me.

[drillerpie]

No, but I wouldn't see it as a good reason either to celebrate them being pushed towards civil - which may be gross exaggeration, but who knows what has been set in motion over the last decade.

Almost everybody cheerleading this war on (pro or anti-west) with practically no voices calling for a peace process just doesn't sit well with me.

I think it's great. Any Russian/Wagner/Kadyrov troops and tanks diverted to somewhere not in Ukraine is excellent news IMO.

Peace process means sitting down at a table and deciding how much of Ukraine to give to Russia = a win for Russia.

I'm cheering for an immediate Russian withdrawal, which actually just got more likely with today's events.

[upthemaggies]

I think it's great. Any Russian/Wagner/Kadyrov troops and tanks diverted to somewhere not in Ukraine is excellent news IMO.

Peace process means sitting down at a table and deciding how much of Ukraine to give to Russia = a win for Russia.

I'm cheering for an immediate Russian withdrawal, which actually just got more likely with today's events.

Let's hope you're right, but can't see Crimea being resolved that easily, if you include them withdrawing from there.