O/T:- Palestine / Israel

[SwalePie]

I can’t believe you believe anything Channel 4 reports too! It was clarified with the footage as said with the Islamic Jihad rocket misfiring and the intercepted conversation on tbe frontline when tbey realised they had fecked up.

I don't watch it generally but happened to have that report on the other night during dinner. The Doppler analysis and the image analysis were pretty convincing to be fair. The audio analysis of the communications not so much IMO. It seems you may have misunderstood what was being said about the audio communications, by the way. The point being made there was not that they had said they 'fecked up' but that the audio had been manipulated (edited together from different sources) to make it sound like they had said that.

Anyone who thinks they know anything much for certain in this particular information war is merely fooling themselves I'd say, although hindsight is a useful tool of course.

[Magpies1959]

I am trying my best to understand the history of this age old conflict, but the Palestinians/Hamas, do seem to be very argumentive when interviewed, and are caught out lying alot.
Rory Stewart gives a good account of the history between the two sides in a podcast on You Tube, with Alistair Campbell, who is amazingly reasoned in it.

[nw6pie]

Interesting. So the C4 report has now been widely discredited? (It would appear I'm not fully up to speed, so not arguing with you here)


ETA: Just had a read of this which also casts doubt on it https://www.jurist.org/features/2023/10/23/explainer-suspicions-shroud-al-ahli-hospital-blast-probes/

No one will know for sure what happened, but there’s enough OSINT out there for most serious news organisations to have rejected the Hamas version of events that was rushed out there (it was actually a hospital car park and forecourt that were hit, not the hospital).

The fact that Hamas said that all the fragments of the bomb had completely disappeared by the following morning so no one could check them was the biggest red flag for me - and the fact that newspapers that are hardly pro-Israel like the NYT and The Guardian apologised for being too hasty blaming the IDF.

[jackal2]

I am trying my best to understand the history of this age old conflict, but the Palestinians/Hamas, do seem to be very argumentive when interviewed, and are caught out lying alot.

Most people on the Palestine/Hamas side of the argument seem to be of the view that anyone who doesn't agree with them should be silenced or beheaded, which doesn't really endear them to people who believe in democracy and freedom of speech.

[OchPie]

Most people on the Palestine/Hamas side of the argument seem to be of the view that anyone who doesn't agree with them should be silenced or beheaded, which doesn't really endear them to people who believe in democracy and freedom of speech.

People are literally losing their jobs for suggesting Palestinians are humans. I think you've got who is doing the silencing entirely backwards.

[OchPie]

No one will know for sure what happened, but there’s enough OSINT out there for most serious news organisations to have rejected the Hamas version of events that was rushed out there (it was actually a hospital car park and forecourt that were hit, not the hospital).

The OSINT seems very inconclusive. Here's the latest addition from the NYT to suggest that what was being blamed for the incident in fact seems to have had nothing to do with it.

https://twitter.com/AricToler/status...15483843576248

[nw6pie]

The OSINT seems very inconclusive. Here's the latest addition from the NYT to suggest that what was being blamed for the incident in fact seems to have had nothing to do with it.

https://twitter.com/AricToler/status...15483843576248

That’s interesting, but Hamas’ response - denying that any fragment of missile survived, which most independent experts regarded as impossible - still seems the most telling to me.

[Newish Pie]

Although the explosion at the hospital was a horrific event, it seems to me that a lot of people (of all shades of opinion) are putting too much weight on what/who was actually responsible. If this was the Israelis, it doesn't let Hamas off the hook for their barbaric terrorist attacks, and if it was Hamas (or their allies) attack gone wrong, it doesn't let the Israeli government off the hook for their war crimes.

Who's in the right and who's in the wrong about the conflict as a whole, and what should or shouldn't happen next, shouldn't be determined by who was responsible for what happened at the hospital. There should, of course, be consequences for the individuals who are responsible.

Personally, I don't blame anyone for assuming that it was the Israelis. In armed conflict, when a hospital gets blown up, it's almost always the other side that did it. Tragic accidents are pretty rare, as are actual 'false flag' attacks. An academic expert in international relations and espionage talks about "implausible deniability" (Russia does this, as does Trump)... doesn't matter if your denials are in any way plausible, just as long as your cheerleaders can muddy the waters for long enough until attention shifts to something else. That's what I thought this was, now I'm not sure, and I don't have the expertise to judge.

Certainly true that Hamas aren't bastions of honesty or integrity, but neither are the IDF nor the broader security apparatus.

Incidentally... a few posts have conflated Hamas and the Palestinian cause as if they're one and the same. I'm sure everyone knows that they're not, but it's worth being careful with language. It makes things simpler to reduce things to two sides, but it's a lot more complicated than that. Conflating the Israeli people with Netanyahu's government is the same mistake.

[jackal2]

People are literally losing their jobs for suggesting Palestinians are humans. I think you've got who is doing the silencing entirely backwards.

I don't agree with anyone being silenced. Silencing a view - however abhorrent some may find it - never makes that view go away. In fact, people who feel unable to express their view often become more extreme and ultimately more prone to use violence.

[Magpies1959]

How wonderful to see all the demonstrations on the streets of our capital city, by people so concerned and passionate about their own state, that they don't even live there.