O/T:- Palestine / Israel

[BigFatPie]

I think in the main, they are easily lead by Hamas propaganda on various social media platforms, and the rest are just ignorant, and happy to follow the crowd.
I find it stunning how little is reported on the msm, about the maze of tunnels below Gaza that Hamas operate from.

You criticising others for being easily led by propaganda is hilarious.

[Newish Pie]

Very disturbing to hear that a large number of young people in this country see Hamas as freedom fighters, rather than terrorists.

What's the evidence for this? I mean, I'm sure that there are some people who think that. But the good news for people who worry about this sort of thing is that the vast majority of people who are worried about Palestinian lives and Palestinian rights absolutely do not see Hamas as freedom fighters and completely condemn their actions. Both the recent terrorist attacks, and the way they treat their own people.

There's been a concerted effort by the likes of Braverman and others with their talk of "hate marches" to smear everyone who's calling for a ceasefire/peaceful resolution as some sort of Hamas apologist. It's a deliberate and disgraceful lie, and it's sad to see people believing it.

It's fine to have open and honest disagreement about issues, but it's not fine to smear or misrepresent opposing views. Doesn't matter who does it, on what side, or on what issue. It's just wrong. It prevents open and honest debate and only increases division.

[Magpies1959]

Terribly sorry for having a differing and obviously wrong view to yours BFP, you are the font of all knowledge and I must learn to bow down to you.
It is a wee bit sad though, that so many of these 'peaceful' Palestinian protestors, do not know what 'From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free', actually means.

[Old_pie]

It was always thus - in my day it was the PLO. Israel defeated / discredited them... and they became Hamas. I feel this is history repeating itself.

PLO did not become HAMAS.

If you watch the documentary I cited earlier you'd see that the PLO (Arafat) and Rabin had agreed a Peace Deal (Oslo Accord) and the two men considered each other as partners. Unfortunately Arafat did not control all the extremists and Hamas didn't go along with the deal. So really Hamas defeated the PLO, not Israel.

Rabin being then assassinated by a Jewish right-wing extremist, and Arafat failing to achieve the agreed Palestinian liberation, and subsequently also died in somewhat mysterious circumstances, shows how hard this all is without having misinformation.

[Old_pie]

What's the evidence for this? I mean, I'm sure that there are some people who think that. But the good news for people who worry about this sort of thing is that the vast majority of people who are worried about Palestinian lives and Palestinian rights absolutely do not see Hamas as freedom fighters and completely condemn their actions. Both the recent terrorist attacks, and the way they treat their own people.

There's been a concerted effort by the likes of Braverman and others with their talk of "hate marches" to smear everyone who's calling for a ceasefire/peaceful resolution as some sort of Hamas apologist. It's a deliberate and disgraceful lie, and it's sad to see people believing it.

It's fine to have open and honest disagreement about issues, but it's not fine to smear or misrepresent opposing views. Doesn't matter who does it, on what side, or on what issue. It's just wrong. It prevents open and honest debate and only increases division.

So many "well meaning" people want to see a ceasefire. No normal human being can watch the pain and suffering without wishing for a peaceful solution.

But there is not enough news coverage on who the IDF are fighting. Again I will refer to the documentary I cited, made in 2017, when standing near the Gaza border the Israelis were fearful of what was below their feet, and as they observered a Hamas look-out post shots were fired. Are the IDF going into Hospitals fighting nurses and doctors? Who is fighting back, surely someone is fighting back? Why are they there in the first place. Why are the brave freedom fighters lurking in well constructed tunnels within civilian infrastructure? In 2015 even Egypt flooded, with sea water, the Hamas tunnels near their border.

A ceasefire simply gives Hamas time and space to regroup to cause more havoc. Their stated aim is the destruction of Israel. That is the freedom they are fighting for however many Palestinian lives it costs.

[Magpies1959]

It was my thinking also, that the PLO did not become HAMAS

[Newish Pie]

So many "well meaning" people want to see a ceasefire. No normal human being can watch the pain and suffering without wishing for a peaceful solution.

But there is not enough news coverage on who the IDF are fighting. Again I will refer to the documentary I cited, made in 2017, when standing near the Gaza border the Israelis were fearful of what was below their feet, and as they observered a Hamas look-out post shots were fired. Are the IDF going into Hospitals fighting nurses and doctors? Who is fighting back, surely someone is fighting back? Why are they there in the first place. Why are the brave freedom fighters lurking in well constructed tunnels within civilian infrastructure? In 2015 even Egypt flooded, with sea water, the Hamas tunnels near their border.

A ceasefire simply gives Hamas time and space to regroup to cause more havoc. Their stated aim is the destruction of Israel. That is the freedom they are fighting for however many Palestinian lives it costs.

I'd agree with most of that. That's the thing - there's a lot more agreement than disagreement on this issue, especially in the UK.

Everyone wants a peaceful solution, pretty much everyone thinks that the way forward is a two-state solution. The only difference is one of emphasis... some people will start with how awful Hamas are, some people will start with how awful the IDF are, but will also acknowledge that the other lot are awful too. It's just that they'll do that second, probably say that they're less awful, and will probably say that the media doesn't focus enough on the side they think are the most awful.

It's easy to focus on the disagreement, but actually, at root, there's agreement that (a) two state solution; (b) much better leadership on both sides for everyone's sake; and (c) for the love of all that's holy can you stop killing and maiming each other.

I guess there's a few people who think that either (a) Israel has no right to exist at all in any form and needs to be destroyed, regardless of the consequences for the people who live there; or (b) Israel is justified in doing whatever it likes, regardless of international law and international norms, that self-defence has no limits or proportion, and regardless of the consequences for ordinary people. I disagree with both.

[Newish Pie]

Terribly sorry for having a differing and obviously wrong view to yours BFP, you are the font of all knowledge and I must learn to bow down to you.
It is a wee bit sad though, that so many of these 'peaceful' Palestinian protestors, do not know what 'From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free', actually means.

Well... I agree that I'd rather they didn't sing that, it's ambiguous... it's open to misinterpretation, and that it doesn't help their cause and is a gift to people who want to smear and misrepresent their actual views.

But I don't believe that a lot of people singing that mean it literally in the sense of wanting to see the destruction of Israel. The thing about chants and songs (as we as football fans know perfectly well), is that they're not always meant to be taken literally, that they sometimes take on a life of their own, and other people don't get to decide what they mean. There's also nothing in that song that indicates support for Hamas.

Think it's poor reasoning (at best) and a disingenuous smear (at worst) to take one song or chant and then decide that it means something other than what those singing it mean by it.

[Kent Magpie]

PLO did not become HAMAS.

If you watch the documentary I cited earlier you'd see that the PLO (Arafat) and Rabin had agreed a Peace Deal (Oslo Accord) and the two men considered each other as partners. Unfortunately Arafat did not control all the extremists and Hamas didn't go along with the deal. So really Hamas defeated the PLO, not Israel.

Rabin being then assassinated by a Jewish right-wing extremist, and Arafat failing to achieve the agreed Palestinian liberation, and subsequently also died in somewhat mysterious circumstances, shows how hard this all is without having misinformation.

Sorry - poor choice of words 'Became' wasn't correct. But I thought they were saying on the Alasdair Campbell / Rory Stewart podcast that Hamas filled the void left by the PLO, i.e. with the assassination of Rabin and subsequent marginalisation of Arafat (as he lost his negotiating partner), everything became more extreme - on both sides. It is indeed complex, and difficult to follow.

[Kent Magpie]

Well... I agree that I'd rather they didn't sing that, it's ambiguous... it's open to misinterpretation, and that it doesn't help their cause and is a gift to people who want to smear and misrepresent their actual views.

But I don't believe that a lot of people singing that mean it literally in the sense of wanting to see the destruction of Israel. The thing about chants and songs (as we as football fans know perfectly well), is that they're not always meant to be taken literally, that they sometimes take on a life of their own, and other people don't get to decide what they mean. There's also nothing in that song that indicates support for Hamas.

Think it's poor reasoning (at best) and a disingenuous smear (at worst) to take one song or chant and then decide that it means something other than what those singing it mean by it.

If we all meant literally what we were singing then the red side of the Trent would be a very messy place.... but people should educate themselves at least a bit to understand what is and isn't appropriate.