Ot labour will get in

[ragingpup]

Yes, but those differences are largely determined by what you inherit. When New Labour came to power in 1997 they inherited the strongest economy in Europe, and a big war chest of money. In their first term they continued Tory monetary policy. When the Tories returned to power in 2010 we were economically in as bad a place as we'd been since the 1920s. Historically, the cycle of British politics has been that the Tories get called in to sort out the economy, which usually means making cuts, then once it's back on track people put Labour back in, and so the cycle continues. What's interesting about this time is that the Labour Party will not have the cash to spend.

The problem with talking about centrism is, who determines what the centre ground is? Whatever it is, it's definitely to the left of where it was 30 years ago, and certainly to the left of where it was 14 years ago. For me, the centre ground is the opinion or working-class people outside of North London and the BBC, and that is certainly to the right of where it currently is. The wealthier you are, the less these liberal policies affect you. The poorer you are, the more they bite.

Good points on the starting points of the Blair/Cameron parties. Not sure I agree that we are anything like to the left of centre than we were 30 or 14 years ago. The right of the party, or '*******s' as Major would endearingly refer to them, have won major scores on Brexit and immigration controls, although of course have butted up hugely against reality in having to deal with labour shortages/importing labour into hard to fill areas of NHS, social care, construction and even education where I work, which of course stops them getting the huge immigration cuts they want. But I think that even with this concession to reality, the principles won by Major's *******s mark them overall as more centre right than centre left, although I suspect you will still disagree.

We've even had a brief dallience with a further right small state economic plan with Lettuce briefly demonstrating what happens when you implement 6th form economic principles into a real market situation.

Completely disagree with you saying that the centre ground is the opinion of working class people outside of North London/BBC although I understand the feeling behind it. Outside of North London of course includes the red wall seats where you I think are at least partly correct that there is a tangible cultural shift rightwards (although not so much economically) but in other areas of the country are non red wall seats, that are currently blue/yellow but evidence in polls seem to show that they have swung back leftwards towards labour, I think not helped by the governments own attempts to appease it's current '*******' element. Unfortunately for yourself and the vocal minorities tending towards even further right, Reform etc, these other non-red wall areas far outnumber the right leaning red wall seats, and whilst I suspect many red wall seats will become a mix of tory/reform/labour/spoilt votes, this is why the polls are showing a huge crushing coming towards the conservatives and their incumbent '*******s' on election day.

[Eternal Optimist]

...Farage’s only plan is to gain power, or probably more specifically, getting into Parliament in order to continue to feed his own ego whilst being funded by the taxpayer...

That doesn't add up. He's turned down the offer of a peerage on at least 2 occasions.

...in much the same way as he did as an MEP...

Bit of a logic fail. Whilst an MEP he campaigned relentlessly to make himself redundant.

But I hope you won't be dissuaded - it's interesting to hear how well you've learned what the mainstream media have told you to believe.

[Eternal Optimist]

...Most reasonable people...

Do you feel you're in a position to determine who's being reasonable and who isn't?

[KerrAvon]

After calling him the rocket man, D trump was the only person who actually went to massage the ego of the North Korean leader
At that time a finger appeared to be twitching towards the button in the far east
Whilst he’s still visible now and again we don’t appear to hear as much gesticulating from him these days

Strange that isn’t it
There’s more than one way to maintain the peace of which other recent American Presidents would do well to observe and perhaps learn from.

Yes, Trump met Kim Jong Un, but I would question whether it achieved very much. Things haven’t quietened down, it’s just that the news has got bored of reporting their missile testing activity. This is from a few days ago:

https://apnews.com/article/north-kor...d9b47e66fd65fc

I agree with the thrust of your post, which it is better for leaders to talk than not to (jaw jaw is better than war war, as Churchill put it), but bear in mind that whilst courting North Korea, Trump also hardened the American position on Cuba that Obama had worked hard to thaw out.

[KerrAvon]

I am no supporter of Trump but Biden is a joke, his recent Times interview was a comedy script where he struggled to make a full sentence and randomly made statement that were inaccurate with new made up words. The family have shown themselves to be so corrupt of is beyond a joke that the failing USA judicial hasn't followed through on the evidence against them shows the US is now a banana republic at best. As for Farage your description of him isn't inaccurate but replace the name Farage with any professional politician and your statement would also be correct. It is all about opinion and at the moment we are still allowed to voice ours, but slowly those rights are being taken away by the establishment that doesn't have the authority to remove our rights. Regarding politicians of old there are a few interesting biographies that are worth reading, ones on Gladstone, Lloyd George, Jefferson, Madison and a few more, now nobody is perfect but the world would benefit from people such as these at the moment.

As I have said on other posts, I don't envy the choice that the Americans have in November, but Biden being a poor choice doesn't make Trump a better person.

The American judicial system hasn’t followed through the evidence on the Bidens or hasn’t followed through on the evidence that Trump supporters and the American far right have manufactured or claim to exist?

American society is so deeply polarised now (courtesy in large part to Trump), that it’s very difficult to know what to believe and I wouldn’t accept the existence of ‘evidence’ based upon what Twitter or Fox News and the like say.

I disagree with your characterisation of politicians generally. I know a few people from my work who went on to become politicians, including people who went on to become Tory ministers or the leader of the opposition. I would say that they all generally had good intentions to one degree or another even where I disagree with their political positions. I do think the job has the capacity to make people very cynical however.

[KerrAvon]

That doesn't add up. He's turned down the offer of a peerage on at least 2 occasions.

Bit of a logic fail. Whilst an MEP he campaigned relentlessly to make himself redundant.

But I hope you won't be dissuaded - it's interesting to hear how well you've learned what the mainstream media have told you to believe.

A peerage would block him becoming an MP. Is it 5 times that he has tried to achieve that? I rather think that reveals the nature of his ambitions.

Did he need to become an MEP and take taxpayer money to campaign against British membership of the EU? Where’s the logic in that?

No, I’m not dissuaded. You have said nothing to change my mind.

[UlleyMiller]

Do you feel you're in a position to determine who's being reasonable and who isn't?

Do you think people generally think of themselves as being poor at understanding the world around them? Do you find you struggle to see where reasonable ends and unreasonable begins? It feels like maybe you're carrying some confusion about your surroundings and people you interact with.

[Eternal Optimist]

...Did he need to become an MEP and take taxpayer money to campaign against British membership of the EU? Where’s the logic in that?...

The end justified the means.

...No, I’m not dissuaded. You have said nothing to change my mind.

I don't doubt that for a second.

[Eternal Optimist]

Do you think people generally think of themselves as being poor at understanding the world around them?...

Not at all. I think people generally believe they have an understanding of the world around them. This may or may not be a deep understanding arrived at thorough researching outside the 'bubble' of controlled mainstream media. A subtle difference.

...It feels like maybe you're carrying some confusion about your surroundings and people you interact with...

At least have the courtesy to allow me to lie on the couch and tell you about my childhood before your diagnosis.

[UlleyMiller]

Not at all. I think people generally believe they have an understanding of the world around them. This may or may not be a deep understanding arrived at thorough researching outside the 'bubble' of controlled mainstream media. A subtle difference.



At least have the courtesy to allow me to lie on the couch and tell you about my childhood before your diagnosis.

It's almost comical to witness you go round in these weird circles. Almost...