Opening Ceremony.

[On Balance]

Any organization that supports the Russian invasion of Ukraine is not worth the time of day. If Russian athletes are permitted to participate in the games, with or without their national colours, says the games are an absolute disgrace. Innocent people being killed by a barbaric leader of a nation of people who should be made to understand that they are not globally welcome at these games is for me, not acceptable. I will not watch or have anything to do with the Olympics until the organizers understand they are supporting the totalitarian murderous regime of Putin. Shame on the Olympic mandate.

Glad I have better things to do than watch this stupid stuff.

[Leicesterbaggie]

Didn’t watch any of the Opening Ceremony, waste of time and money. Will watch the athletics but not much else. Agree with OB regarding Russian participation.

[Albionic68]

Didn't even occur to me to watch the opening ceremony as they're generally quite s hit as a rule. I've never really understood the need for them.

Or fireworks and flame machines in the build up to football matches now I come to think about it, especially when played during daylight hours.

We went out for a few drinks and had a lovely meal in a Thai restaurant, much better use of time and resources. Might be a few fireworks in the bog in a bit though 🤔 .

[baggieal]

Any organization that supports the Russian invasion of Ukraine is not worth the time of day. If Russian athletes are permitted to participate in the games, with or without their national colours, says the games are an absolute disgrace. Innocent people being killed by a barbaric leader of a nation of people who should be made to understand that they are not globally welcome at these games is for me, not acceptable. I will not watch or have anything to do with the Olympics until the organizers understand they are supporting the totalitarian murderous regime of Putin. Shame on the Olympic mandate.

Glad I have better things to do than watch this stupid stuff.

Totally agree! Pity countries did not boycott it and as you say shame on them!

[bordering]

Any organization that supports the Russian invasion of Ukraine is not worth the time of day. If Russian athletes are permitted to participate in the games, with or without their national colours, says the games are an absolute disgrace. Innocent people being killed by a barbaric leader of a nation of people who should be made to understand that they are not globally welcome at these games is for me, not acceptable. I will not watch or have anything to do with the Olympics until the organizers understand they are supporting the totalitarian murderous regime of Putin. Shame on the Olympic mandate.

Glad I have better things to do than watch this stupid stuff.

I suggest you try to live up to your name on balance. The invasion of Ukraine was provoked by the West ignoring many agreements frpm Minsk 2012. The West has crossed so many of their own red lines
Sanctions have impoverished the West not Russia , USA blew up German pipeline and they are allies.
The evil regime is USA not Russia.
Thank God Putin is the only sane man in the room. USA want Europe to fight Russia and export their troubles to us & now they want to fight China, Iran , N Korea. Don't kneejerk check it out not with the BBC but try Prof Jeffrey Sachs.
On balance we are provoking Russia and it is Europe who will pay the price

[bordering]

I suggest you try to live up to your name on balance. The invasion of Ukraine was provoked by the West ignoring many agreements frpm Minsk 2012. The West has crossed so many of their own red lines
Sanctions have impoverished the West not Russia , USA blew up German pipeline and they are allies.
The evil regime is USA not Russia.
Thank God Putin is the only sane man in the room. USA want Europe to fight Russia and export their troubles to us & now they want to fight China, Iran , N Korea. Don't kneejerk check it out not with the BBC but try Prof Jeffrey Sachs.
On balance we are provoking Russia and it is Europe who will pay the price

try this clip - it will open your eyes I hope

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFkGj3HQMcc

[Omegstrat6]

try this clip - it will open your eyes I hope

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFkGj3HQMcc

He may be a generally respected voice in global economics but is Sachs himself either correct or reliable on everything? He wants closer co-operation between the US with China, does not see them as a threat and claims that calling the repression of Uyghurs by China as effective "genocide" is wrong. His views on the Covid outbreak also fuelled the (conspiracy?) theory that it was due to a leak in a secretive biological laboratory -only he thinks it from an American source rather than a Chinese one. He may have had a point about US interference in Syria but seems blinded to the consequences of the actions of both Syrian leader Bashar Al Assad and Putin on the civilian population and he supports the theory that it was the US rather than Russia that sabotaged the Nord gaspipe when there has been no hard evidence to back either up.

As for the Russian invasion of Ukraine, having read both Abelow's "How the West brought war to Ukraine" and Puri's "Russia's road to war with Ukraine", I can understand the argument for Western provocation to a degree. I also recognize that a significant proportion of eastern Ukrainians wanted to remain part of Russia and that Ukraine itself was still fighting inherent corruption within the country.

HOWEVER, what about one of the root questions in all this, which is why so many Eastern European countries that were formerly part of the old Soviet Union joined or wanted to join NATO in the first place? Clearly, there were economic reasons for them wanting closer ties to Europe but surely their main reason for joining NATO was for a level of protection against Putin and his own expansionist ambitions? The West may have welcomed them joining but they could not have forced them to. I suspect that fear of Putin's possible actions was a key driver.

Very clearly, the actions of the United States -and to a lesser extent it's Western allies-in other countries have not always been either defensible or successful but surely Putin is even worse given the conduct of his forces that he happily endorses whether that be in Chechnya, Syria or Ukraine.

"The evil regime is USA not Russia" and Putin is the "only sane one"? I don't consider myself blinded to all of the machinations of the US and I really dislike so much of what Trump stands for ( and whilst Sleepy Joe may be senile that doesn't mean he is not sane) but, "on balance", I would still personally much prefer the US to Putin's regime in Russia bordering.

[boinggazmic]

try this clip - it will open your eyes I hope

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFkGj3HQMcc

Medication time. Medication time.

[mickd1961]

He may be a generally respected voice in global economics but is Sachs himself either correct or reliable on everything? He wants closer co-operation between the US with China, does not see them as a threat and claims that calling the repression of Uyghurs by China as effective "genocide" is wrong. His views on the Covid outbreak also fuelled the (conspiracy?) theory that it was due to a leak in a secretive biological laboratory -only he thinks it from an American source rather than a Chinese one. He may have had a point about US interference in Syria but seems blinded to the consequences of the actions of both Syrian leader Bashar Al Assad and Putin on the civilian population and he supports the theory that it was the US rather than Russia that sabotaged the Nord gaspipe when there has been no hard evidence to back either up.

As for the Russian invasion of Ukraine, having read both Abelow's "How the West brought war to Ukraine" and Puri's "Russia's road to war with Ukraine", I can understand the argument for Western provocation to a degree. I also recognize that a significant proportion of eastern Ukrainians wanted to remain part of Russia and that Ukraine itself was still fighting inherent corruption within the country.

HOWEVER, what about one of the root questions in all this, which is why so many Eastern European countries that were formerly part of the old Soviet Union joined or wanted to join NATO in the first place? Clearly, there were economic reasons for them wanting closer ties to Europe but surely their main reason for joining NATO was for a level of protection against Putin and his own expansionist ambitions? The West may have welcomed them joining but they could not have forced them to. I suspect that fear of Putin's possible actions was a key driver.

Very clearly, the actions of the United States -and to a lesser extent it's Western allies-in other countries have not always been either defensible or successful but surely Putin is even worse given the conduct of his forces that he happily endorses whether that be in Chechnya, Syria or Ukraine.

"The evil regime is USA not Russia" and Putin is the "only sane one"? I don't consider myself blinded to all of the machinations of the US and I really dislike so much of what Trump stands for ( and whilst Sleepy Joe may be senile that doesn't mean he is not sane) but, "on balance", I would still personally much prefer the US to Putin's regime in Russia bordering.

Let’s not turn another post into a political critique FFS.

We’ve enough of those.

[Omegstrat6]

try this clip - it will open your eyes I hope

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFkGj3HQMcc

I've watched the clip bordering and whilst Sachs makes some very valid points ( many of which also appear in the 2 books I mentioned), I still personally disagree with some of his key views.

Early on, for example, he says that the end of the Cold War, with Gorbachev keen for peace and closer ties to the West, should have been an opportunity to dismantle NATO which would have been the right thing to do as well as now safe to do. Bush, and subsequent presidents, however chose rather to expand NATO ever closer to Russia's borders. IMHO, I think this naive thinking at best-an "educated wish" as Deadpool might have put it.

Aside from the very high probability that the ties within NATO, alongside those of the EU, have helped prevent far more conflict within Europe than create them, Russia itself after the fall of the Berlin Wall and subsequent collapse of the old Soviet Union in 1991 was very far from stable. The new Russian Federation was in dire economic difficulties and those seeking to transform it into a more democratic collaborative with a free market economy faced strong opposition from very powerful individuals with their own vested interests. Yeltsin's idea of encouraging privatization in order to try and build a bulwark against a possible return to communism played right into their hands. The voucher system was very quickly seized upon by those few powerful former communists who bought for themselves controlling shares in major industries and businesses. The Russian Oligarchs were born. These former Communists may have been the new captains of Capitalism but this was no major ideological problem for the majority of them who just cared about their own wealth and power. In such a climate, it was almost inevitable that some one like Putin would rise to his position.

I guess most people take it as read that self interest and the opportunity to make more money by influential parties are what drives much of US foreign policy alongside security and a few humanitarian concerns. So, a lot of corruption and greed. But isn't the same true, to a more or lesser extent, of every nation? Is Russia any different?

My point is that, given the situation in Russia at the time with no strong leader to deal with, would it not have been foolish to dismantle NATO? Would it have made much difference to Russia or prevented former KGB officer (and later director of the FS Putin coming to power? Putin has been either prime minister or president since 1999. I do understand the arguments around provocation regarding his invasion of Ukraine, but if NATO had been dismantled in the early 1990s, as Sachs suggests, does anyone genuinely believe that Putin would not have set about such invasions of either Ukraine or other former Soviet countries a lot earlier?