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Thread: Election Year or Fear!

  1. #1621
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff Parkstone View Post
    surtax ☺️. Anyone remember that!
    One of many things I learned about by reading good old Charles Shaar Murray in The NME!

  2. #1622
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    My tone may not be to your liking but I am paying a bit more attention now rA, witness a post being deleted last week for racial stereotyping. As for that nickname, it was meant as a bit of fun but if one person on the board is offended by it, I won't use it again, despite it relating to someone who managed to answer a recent question by describing the questioner as 'racist, xenophobic and bigotted', without actually answering the question. As I said, I'll not use the nickname again, and I think I'll include not allowing insulting nicknames in my new 'tone'. I'm guessing that'll mean a lot more deleted posts but hey ho thanks for the suggestion
    Just because you call someone something doesn’t make it a ‘nickname’ and it’s not a question of whether your tone is to my ‘licking’ or not.

    I’ve no idea which or whose post was deleted last week but I agree with MA’s point last week. Tempers may become frayed from time to time but we’re all adults and we ALL - especially you as moderator - should be a bit above the use of derogatory name calling. I wasn’t offended by it, just thought it was inappropriate…from a moderator.

    On the other hand if someone behaves in a way which is ‘racist, xenophobic and/or bigoted’ or for that matter ‘naive’ or ‘idealistic’ or ‘arrogant’ - as you described me last week…then so be it. Fair play to call it out…imo.

    Personally, I never resort to name calling so I’ll remain unaffected.
    Last edited by ramAnag; 05-09-2024 at 05:21 PM.

  3. #1623
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    Just because you call someone something doesn’t make it a ‘nickname’ and it’s not a question of whether your tone is to my ‘licking’ or not.

    I’ve no idea which or whose post was deleted last week but I agree with MA’s point last week. Tempers may become frayed from time to time but we’re all adults and we ALL - especially you as moderator - should be a bit above the use of derogatory name calling. I wasn’t offended by it, just thought it was inappropriate…from a moderator.

    On the other hand if someone behaves in a way which is ‘racist, xenophobic and/or bigoted’ or for that matter ‘naive’ or ‘idealistic’ or ‘arrogant’ - as you described me last week…then so be it. Fair play to call it out…imo.

    Personally, I never resort to name calling so I’ll remain unaffected.
    …or even ‘liking’. Most certainly not a Freudian slip.

  4. #1624
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    Quote Originally Posted by ramAnag View Post
    …or even ‘liking’. Most certainly not a Freudian slip.
    I did wonder

  5. #1625
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    In post #1557 you stated 'the Tories closed all legal routes to claim asylum'. You now state 'There are very few safe routes for refugees to travel to the UK'. My comment to rA was 'Swales 'explanation' is factually inaccurate/misleading', so thanks for proving me right with your own words.

    My issue isn't about immigration Swale, its (in life in general) about people or organisations with a 'platform' (in your this case an orange-carton-sized one but hey ho) who influence the gullible with, as I mentioned, inaccurate and misleading information. And that's people on all sides of the argument, any argument - Tricky for instance, who just scatterguns anything remotely to his worldview - but occasionally some of it hits the mark and is worthy of further investigation, some ultimately somewhere near the truth, some a load of crap. However, I have an even bigger issue with people who suck up whatever they're fed from 'their side' without question, so be thankful in a way that you're not top of my list of silly little frustrations...

    Having vented on that subject, you may be right on legalising/decriminalising certain 'drugs' but we're a million miles/years away from that in UK, and although I don't have much of a clue (I struggle taking Lemsips) what stories do come out in the media suggest there's some pretty uncompromising chaps involved. I just don't see politicians being close enough to the real world to appreciate that
    Oh please, your being pedantic here, but for the sake of accuracy I will explain further.

    In your reply you stated there were many safe route for asylum seekers, that wasn't true. I knew at the time I'd need to add additional explanation, but I guess those who remain convinced that those coming over on the boats are nothing more than "chancers" will basically not believe the FACTS because it doesn't suit their narrative.

    The legislation in 2022 was specifically designed to appear as if the Government was making safe and legal routes available for Refugees or those claiming Asylum but in reality they provide for only specific sets of people.

    So of the three schemes, the UNHCR resettlement scheme is both restrictive and ineffective, with the UK having accepted a fraction of those it pledged to accept.

    To be considered, a person must have fled their home country due to conflict or persecution and have entered another country. This is often difficult and dangerous. They must then register with UNHCR.

    A person cannot request or apply to be resettled, they can only hope to be selected according to the protection criteria of the resettlement programme (for instance a specific medical need that canÂ’t be met in the country of displacement), and if enough resettlement places have been offered.

    No viable for most people as highly likely one could qualify but never get picked for the scheme and could end up in any country.

    Bespoke schemes have been designed as a specific response to events in Ukraine and Afghanistan and are an important way to bring some Ukrainians and Afghans to safety. There was also the Hongkong scheme.

    Obviously none of those in boats qualify under this scheme.

    Family reunion is a rights-based route which allows refugees who have already fled and been given refugee status in another country to bring immediate family members to join them.

    So if your a genuine refugee or Asylum seeker without family in the UK, you can't use this scheme!

    When I stated that the Tories closed off the safe routes for Asylum seekers, i was speaking the truth, because although there exist 3 "safe" routes for refugees, asylum seekers to come into the UK in the vast majority of cases none of them can be accessed by those using boats because even if under International Law they would be deemed to qualify as a refugee or Asylum seeker they can't access a safe and legal scheme, or get a visa to travel to the UK to make a claim!

    Now seeing as the UK Government requires a person to be in the UK, BEFORE they can claim Asylum, perhaps you can explain to me how the majority of those who qualify but want to make a claim can do so?

    The last government was very good at putting things into law or making claims that something existed when despite appearances in reality it did not. This is a classic example whereby safe and legal routes are largely an illusion.

    If Brexit has nothing to do with the rise in small boats crossings, explain why prior to Brexit such crossings were minimal?

    Your comment about returns being minimal is odd, given it has been the resumption of a return agreement with Albania for their nationals that has largely stopped that nationality ( most of whom clearly weren't asylum seekers) crossing.

    The point about the previous returns agreement, is that those for whom France or Italy was a reasonable safe country to claim asylum, never entered the UK.

    As for THicky's contributions, they are littered with racist, xenophobic and bigoted remarks, often lifted straight from right wing media and internet sources, unapologetically so. He has been openly derogatory about Eastern Europeans, Syrians and many other nationalities, if the cap fits I will call it out. The fact that you as moderator don't see fit to do so is perhaps an indication of where your views lie?

  6. #1626
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    Quote Originally Posted by swaledale View Post
    an indication of where your views lie?
    My views lie with truth and accuracy, and then a decent discussion. If you'd started the discussion with 'The Tories (you could have kept it non party political by just saying UK HMG) only had minimal, hard to access legal routes' etc then there wouldn't have been any disagreement. The conversation could then have progressed to whether such routes are 'plenty' (a stretch on my part I'll accept) or are a bare minimum, whether such routes would stop the 'flood' (Tricky's word) or just delay it (MA's assertion which I support, not with an anti-immigration stance but with a well-read belief that the 'gangs' just won't stop (until something more lucrative is found)). The conversation could THEN progress about whether such numbers actually matter anyway in the scheme of things, whether the balance of productive souls v crims, stay at homes and fundamentalists is worth accepting, and whether in any case in the connected world we should just accept a shift in the way we look/are/act as a population (you've suggested 'that ship has sailed' in the past, I'm inclined to agree, Tricky would see that as the disaster scenario) etc etc blah blah

    But you started with a falsehood and it went downhill from there

  7. #1627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    My views lie with truth and accuracy, and then a decent discussion. If you'd started the discussion with 'The Tories (you could have kept it non party political by just saying UK HMG) only had minimal, hard to access legal routes' etc then there wouldn't have been any disagreement. The conversation could then have progressed to whether such routes are 'plenty' (a stretch on my part I'll accept) or are a bare minimum, whether such routes would stop the 'flood' (Tricky's word) or just delay it (MA's assertion which I support, not with an anti-immigration stance but with a well-read belief that the 'gangs' just won't stop (until something more lucrative is found)). The conversation could THEN progress about whether such numbers actually matter anyway in the scheme of things, whether the balance of productive souls v crims, stay at homes and fundamentalists is worth accepting, and whether in any case in the connected world we should just accept a shift in the way we look/are/act as a population (you've suggested 'that ship has sailed' in the past, I'm inclined to agree, Tricky would see that as the disaster scenario) etc etc blah blah

    But you started with a falsehood and it went downhill from there
    Except what I stated was that there had not been an increase in Asylum seekers coming to the Uk since Brexit, numbers vary over the years in any case, but that the failure of the Tory government to negotiate a replacement agreement on Asylum Seekers following Brexit and the lack of actual safe and legal routes for them was what had led to the increase in numbers crossing to the Uk in small boats.

    Your response to my original post, was not, oh but there are safe and legal routes, but its clear that the vast majority of those who wish to claim asylum wouldn't qualify or be able to access them. You were being pedantic and (I'm paraphrasing here) saying that isn't true, there are many safe and legal routes and it was your view that those using boats were likely either not asylum seekers or those that wouldn't qualify.

    You boldly stated that my post was inaccurate and biased and that neither Brexit or the lack of a safe and legal route was why they came by boat. One might almost believe you have swallowed the patently obvious lies peddled by the Tory government on this issue, but I can't believe that because you claim to be concerned with truth and accuracy.

    The fact that there are just 3 supposedly safe and legal routes to claim asylum, only 1 of route is available to those crossing by boats to potentially use, the UNHCR scheme, but that relies upon them being picked for the scheme and that the Uk wasn't the guaranteed destination, rather suggests that the lack of an actual safe and legal route or indeed a visa system to allow an asylum seeker to claim asylum on UK soil, which is what they are required to do means that my initial statement about the lack of a safe and legal route for a potential asylum seeker to travel to the Uk to make a claim is true.

    To argue about the semantics, is rather like thinking the Tory government passing a law which says that Rwanda is a safe country to deport asylum seekers to, is true. If anyone actually believes that, then we have truly entered the era where calling white, black is believed provided it is accords with the views of an individual. That's deluded thinking.

    But don't take my word for it, here are the findings of a respected academic - I make this clear, because I know how much you like to attack the messenger on the basis of what's written is so called plagiarism, rather than address the actual issue.

    A notable new academic report by Professor Thom Brooks of Durham University takes a detailed look at the underlying reasons behind the large increase in the number of asylum seekers arriving in the UK after crossing the English Channel by small boat. Brooks is Professor of Law and Government at Durham Law School.

    As the report notes, the number of people crossing the Channel has 'skyrocketed' from less than 300 in 2018 to over 45,000 last year.

    Most notably, the report finds that the UK Government's failure to negotiate a post-Brexit returns policy for asylum seekers with the European Union (EU) is the main cause for the increase in small boat crossings.

    The report explains: "The UK's lack of a returns policy is the most significant pull factor for small boat journeys. Leaving the EU without a returns arrangement has meant individuals can now travel to the UK with the knowledge it is much more difficult for them to be returned post-2020 – which has not been true when the UK was in the EU pre-2020. When coupled with slow processing times for asylum applications, the UK has become easier to remain inside if and when migrants are able to get to our shores."

    It is acknowledged in the report that criminal gangs are the ultimate cause of small boat journeys, but Professor Brooks says they are effectively taking advantage of this regulatory change created by Brexit.

    Brooks says the lack of a returns agreement was a significant flaw in the post-Brexit deal, and the UK Government appears to be unable or unwilling to acknowledge this failure.

    You have done your utmost to claim my views were biased (how? It was the Tory government who ****ed up the post Brexit arrangements, especially with regard to asylum seekers, ad indeed who ahve done this for political capital, rather than get on with the job of managing the system effectively, so that those who had valid claims were processed and able to join society and become productive and those that didn't could be deported. And I might ad it was the Tory government that has wasted billions of tax payers money on this matter for purely political ends.

    If your going to challenge something, it might be an idea to apply some "truth and accuracy" to your own claims first, otherwise you tend to look rather silly.
    Last edited by swaledale; 07-09-2024 at 08:22 PM.

  8. #1628
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    Quote Originally Posted by swaledale View Post
    Except what I stated was that there had not been an increase in Asylum seekers coming to the Uk since Brexit, numbers vary over the years in any case, but that the failure of the Tory government to negotiate a replacement agreement on Asylum Seekers following Brexit and the lack of actual safe and legal routes for them was what had led to the increase in numbers crossing to the Uk in small boats.

    Your response to my original post, was not, oh but there are safe and legal routes, but its clear that the vast majority of those who wish to claim asylum wouldn't qualify or be able to access them. You were being pedantic and (I'm paraphrasing here) saying that isn't true, there are many safe and legal routes and it was your view that those using boats were likely either not asylum seekers or those that wouldn't qualify.

    You boldly stated that my post was inaccurate and biased and that neither Brexit or the lack of a safe and legal route was why they came by boat. One might almost believe you have swallowed the patently obvious lies peddled by the Tory government on this issue, but I can't believe that because you claim to be concerned with truth and accuracy.

    The fact that there are just 3 supposedly safe and legal routes to claim asylum, only 1 of route is available to those crossing by boats to potentially use, the UNHCR scheme, but that relies upon them being picked for the scheme and that the Uk wasn't the guaranteed destination, rather suggests that the lack of an actual safe and legal route or indeed a visa system to allow an asylum seeker to claim asylum on UK soil, which is what they are required to do means that my initial statement about the lack of a safe and legal route for a potential asylum seeker to travel to the Uk to make a claim is true.

    To argue about the semantics, is rather like thinking the Tory government passing a law which says that Rwanda is a safe country to deport asylum seekers to, is true. If anyone actually believes that, then we have truly entered the era where calling white, black is believed provided it is accords with the views of an individual. That's deluded thinking.

    But don't take my word for it, here are the findings of a respected academic - I make this clear, because I know how much you like to attack the messenger on the basis of what's written is so called plagiarism, rather than address the actual issue.

    A notable new academic report by Professor Thom Brooks of Durham University takes a detailed look at the underlying reasons behind the large increase in the number of asylum seekers arriving in the UK after crossing the English Channel by small boat. Brooks is Professor of Law and Government at Durham Law School.

    As the report notes, the number of people crossing the Channel has 'skyrocketed' from less than 300 in 2018 to over 45,000 last year.

    Most notably, the report finds that the UK Government's failure to negotiate a post-Brexit returns policy for asylum seekers with the European Union (EU) is the main cause for the increase in small boat crossings.

    The report explains: "The UK's lack of a returns policy is the most significant pull factor for small boat journeys. Leaving the EU without a returns arrangement has meant individuals can now travel to the UK with the knowledge it is much more difficult for them to be returned post-2020 – which has not been true when the UK was in the EU pre-2020. When coupled with slow processing times for asylum applications, the UK has become easier to remain inside if and when migrants are able to get to our shores."

    It is acknowledged in the report that criminal gangs are the ultimate cause of small boat journeys, but Professor Brooks says they are effectively taking advantage of this regulatory change created by Brexit.

    Brooks says the lack of a returns agreement was a significant flaw in the post-Brexit deal, and the UK Government appears to be unable or unwilling to acknowledge this failure.

    You have done your utmost to claim my views were biased (how? It was the Tory government who ****ed up the post Brexit arrangements, especially with regard to asylum seekers, ad indeed who ahve done this for political capital, rather than get on with the job of managing the system effectively, so that those who had valid claims were processed and able to join society and become productive and those that didn't could be deported. And I might ad it was the Tory government that has wasted billions of tax payers money on this matter for purely political ends.

    If your going to challenge something, it might be an idea to apply some "truth and accuracy" to your own claims first, otherwise you tend to look rather silly.
    I’m sure you went to a lot of effort on this but my point was you started with a falsehood, which you did. But I’m also sure everyone’s fed up listening to us so I’ll leave the discussion at that

  9. #1629
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy_Faber View Post
    I’m sure you went to a lot of effort on this but my point was you started with a falsehood, which you did. But I’m also sure everyone’s fed up listening to us so I’ll leave the discussion at that
    Hmmm, who’da thought?
    Seems like a familiar ‘strategy’…however, moving on…just watched Starmer on Kuenssberg. Appreciate that many won’t agree but I thought he came across very well. Tough decisions need to be made given the situation that’s been inherited and, imo, the PM came across as determined, fair minded and firm in his vision for the future.
    Tugendhat, in comparison, seems like a surprisingly decent individual, given that he’s part of the current Tory party, but I’d be amazed if he’s elected leader.

  10. #1630
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    What I am fed up with is the pedantic semantics used at times. Someone posts a view at one end of the spectrum. Someone else says that's totally false because of whatever. The first person then says OK but..... going along with the slight tweak to what was first written. Person #2 keeps hammering "falsehood". If the truth in the original claim hugely outweighs any shortcomings therein, I find it petty, at best, to keep hammering it. especially when the original poster has admitted his first comment wasn't 100% accurate and goes on to point out holes in #2's argument.

    Whatever happened to reasoned discussion where #2 is equally as humble in accepting the basic truth of the opening statement as #1 is in accepting #2's "amendment" but points out that that only applies to a very small amount of people wanting to come to the UK?

    Please, everybody, not just #1 and #2, stop being right fighters. There's a point in every exchange where enough is enough. This particular "right fight" has, IMHO gone way too far so, for sanity of the rest of us, put a bloody sock in it!!!

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