English identity?

[MadAmster]

MA= sorry, you missed the point. We have a national parliament but why doesn't England have one to deal with ENGLISH INTERESTS?
England spending should not just be a national parliament discussion.

IMO, it's you who misses the point TTR. Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish are outnumbered at Westminster and would likely get outvoted at anything that cost money but only "helped" one of the "other 3" and not England. Devolution was a mere sop to, hopefully, prevent any move to independence by giving them a watered down Parliament to run a small amount of policy points with little to no revenue raising powers.

[Geoff Parkstone]

The more I see of this debate, the more I wonder if rA is in fact a Moslem given his continuous support for all things Islamic

Shall rename you rA Masood for your support of the rAMs and Islam. A rear gunner for Allah perhaps, Swale will be upset at being supplanted

[ramAnag]

Not true, read it all.

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articl...ording-english

Catholics, as far as I am aware, don't ask for their courts to comply with their religion?
You have seen the polls before, that whilst 63% of Muslims identify as "British" not necessarily English, Islam comes way before that.
The conflict is easily observed as well. You may have ignored the fact, that several Islam MP's have been elected on the Free Palestine ticket
Hardly an English identity prioirty

What’s ’not true’? When have I mentioned religious courts? That’s a separate issue that is peripheral, at best, to the question of English identity and what have MP’s being ‘elected on the Free Palestine ticket’ got to do with it?

The question is…what is English identity and can it be defined? It was never created for you to just bang on obsessively about Muslims (again!)…and ‘Johnny Foreigner’ not being able to queue up properly.

[Trickytreesreds]

What’s ’not true’? When have I mentioned religious courts? That’s a separate issue that is peripheral, at best, to the question of English identity and what have MP’s being ‘elected on the Free Palestine ticket’ got to do with it?

The question is…what is English identity and can it be defined? It was never created for you to just bang on obsessively about Muslims (again!)…and ‘Johnny Foreigner’ not being able to queue up properly.

The survey asked a "number" of people what they believed makes someone English. It wasn't everyone, or exclusively one ethnicity. However it doesn't say what the ethnicitys were only that they were "English".

My point, which you are avoiding, is was my personal interpretation of it. As for being English, I think of fair play, honour, patriotism for the homeland, free speech, and sense of pride of being the worlds best for a while.
We queue quietly and put up with hassle for a long time, before exploding. (something our european neighbours don't do,)


Now going back to what rattled you, does Islam conform to being "English" and would you consider Islam to represent what you believe is normal fair and square?

[Geoff Parkstone]

I actually struggle to see why you don't get this point. We are seeking to define what is "English" as a quality. Historically amongst the various elements of being English would have been the "Church of England" - the clue is in the name.

Moving forward the influence of church of England on the definition of being English has watered down for sure but generally speaking there has not been a wholesale assault on COE. Yes Catholics, Jews rtc have their own belief system but generally that been more a safe of grey apart only and hasn't really spilled over into statute beyond a few religious holidays etc

Today this scenario is very different, revolutionary not evolutionary. There is not a separation between "state and church" - which exists - nay is enforced - in domestic religion. Islam does not follow this "keeping the law district from the belief system". Bishops can't vote rtc.

In Islam the belief drives the state. It transcends state borders, it imposes it's own laws and those laws don't correspond to those of the host nation in this case. I'm not saying which legal system is best, just recognizing significant differences. An (eg) Pakistani immigrant can adopt English status, passports etc but their belief system.eill still dominate - it's a key factor of the beliefs.

So an English person of Islamic background is always caught between two stools and cannot follow the norm of any definition of being English - we live in a secular state which defines us: Islam is inconsistent with that on many levels.

I think Islam is the second biggest religion in this country (I read 30% but that seems high) so for this reason alone it's impossible to define "Englishness" when such a fundamental schism exists in the basics of separation of church and state

[MadAmster]

The simple solution is to ban religion.

As for being English, TTR isn't far off with his "I think of fair play, honour, patriotism for the homeland, free speech. We queue quietly and put up with hassle for a long time, before exploding and then they'd best get out of the way, and quickly too".

An Englishman's home is his castle. Attack it at your own risk.

[Andy_Faber]

Back to the OPÂ’s question and Jenricks concern:

‘What is quintessentially English?’

I give you the village garden party/fete

My childhood village is holding a garden party this weekend. Produce stalls, bat the rat, tombola, flower/produce competitions, small brass band, local ‘celebrity’ giving out prizes etc. last year was a right jollyup which carried on in the local pub

My local village doesn’t have such an event any more. Around 2015 a very vocal, very opinionated person joined ‘the committee and, I will admit through a high work ethic compared to others, gradually ‘modernised’ the event over the next four summers. She was a strong advocate of what we’d know as a ‘minority’ group and progressively that groupand others took over from the shin kicking, ugliest dog and gurning competitions etc. attendance actually went UP but attendance by, and help from, locals declined. After Covid the village decided not to bother any more and joined in with a neighbouring villages in a scarecrow festival. The fete may return but it was sabotaged by a small minority (with basically good intentions) using the wrong vehicle to spread a (valid) message/messages when the object should have been to draw the community together and have some fun in a quintessentially English way

[MadAmster]

Back to the OPÂ’s question and Jenricks concern:

‘What is quintessentially English?’

I give you the village garden party/fete

My childhood village is holding a garden party this weekend. Produce stalls, bat the rat, tombola, flower/produce competitions, small brass band, local ‘celebrity’ giving out prizes etc. last year was a right jollyup which carried on in the local pub

My local village doesn’t have such an event any more. Around 2015 a very vocal, very opinionated person joined ‘the committee and, I will admit through a high work ethic compared to others, gradually ‘modernised’ the event over the next four summers. She was a strong advocate of what we’d know as a ‘minority’ group and progressively that groupand others took over from the shin kicking, ugliest dog and gurning competitions etc. attendance actually went UP but attendance by, and help from, locals declined. After Covid the village decided not to bother any more and joined in with a neighbouring villages in a scarecrow festival. The fete may return but it was sabotaged by a small minority (with basically good intentions) using the wrong vehicle to spread a (valid) message/messages when the object should have been to draw the community together and have some fun in a quintessentially English way

The good old "if it aint broke, don't mend it" philosophy. Like it.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Yep, been there seen that. Traditional fete, same stalls every year, bottle stalls, **** the rat, coconut shy etc etc. Always had a decent turnout, raised a couple of grand for community charities.

New people get involved, seen as "same old, same old" and model torn up with emphasis on diversity that didn't match the local demographic. Attendances fell for a couple of years. Funds raised down to zero. Lasted two more years before ceased.

Not sure which is quintessentially more British - the traditional fete or the self destructive drive to ruin things by "doing the right thing". Probably both in equal measure. You don't turn a fete into a diwali celebration when the community is non-diverse, and expect no kick back

[ramAnag]

I actually struggle to see why you don't get this point. We are seeking to define what is "English" as a quality. Historically amongst the various elements of being English would have been the "Church of England" - the clue is in the name.

Moving forward the influence of church of England on the definition of being English has watered down for sure but generally speaking there has not been a wholesale assault on COE. Yes Catholics, Jews rtc have their own belief system but generally that been more a safe of grey apart only and hasn't really spilled over into statute beyond a few religious holidays etc

Today this scenario is very different, revolutionary not evolutionary. There is not a separation between "state and church" - which exists - nay is enforced - in domestic religion. Islam does not follow this "keeping the law district from the belief system". Bishops can't vote rtc.

In Islam the belief drives the state. It transcends state borders, it imposes it's own laws and those laws don't correspond to those of the host nation in this case. I'm not saying which legal system is best, just recognizing significant differences. An (eg) Pakistani immigrant can adopt English status, passports etc but their belief system.eill still dominate - it's a key factor of the beliefs.

So an English person of Islamic background is always caught between two stools and cannot follow the norm of any definition of being English - we live in a secular state which defines us: Islam is inconsistent with that on many levels.

I think Islam is the second biggest religion in this country (I read 30% but that seems high) so for this reason alone it's impossible to define "Englishness" when such a fundamental schism exists in the basics of separation of church and state

Not entirely sure if that reply is to me, GP…but I honestly don’t think the decline in the CoE, which has been evident throughout our lifetimes, has much to do with it. It’s many years since I was struck by the realisation that while Catholic churches appeared full of ordinary folk who felt no need to dress up, their CoE equivalent was populated by people who were in the choir and a few elderly people who felt the need to wear their Sunday best.

Not sure why there’s been so much mention of Islam either…that very definitely didn’t come from the OP, but from elsewhere.

Don’t agree with MA (or Tricky) about the qualities that make us English…they seem to me to be qualities of decency which can be found, not universally, throughout the World and, in my personal experience, certainly throughout Western Europe and North America.

Coincidentally I’m currently situated high up above a Spanish village which is known as the ‘Village of the Three Cultures’, those being Christian, Islam and Jewish. Despite the bloody past, they celebrate the contributions of those three cultures to the current village’s existence in a thoroughly positive and healthy way, and although today it’s more of a mixture of local Spanish, Dutch, German and Brits everyone appears to get on and, having been to countless bars, restaurants and supermarkets I can assure Tricky that the Brits do not hold the monopoly on being able to queue properly.

Maybe then, seeing as we have been unable to define it, there is - as RS and GP initially suggested - no such thing as ‘English identity’ which perhaps begs the question, what was Jenrick talking about…and why?