English identity?

[ramAnag]

I actually struggle to see why you don't get this point. We are seeking to define what is "English" as a quality. Historically amongst the various elements of being English would have been the "Church of England" - the clue is in the name.

Moving forward the influence of church of England on the definition of being English has watered down for sure but generally speaking there has not been a wholesale assault on COE. Yes Catholics, Jews rtc have their own belief system but generally that been more a safe of grey apart only and hasn't really spilled over into statute beyond a few religious holidays etc

Today this scenario is very different, revolutionary not evolutionary. There is not a separation between "state and church" - which exists - nay is enforced - in domestic religion. Islam does not follow this "keeping the law district from the belief system". Bishops can't vote rtc.

In Islam the belief drives the state. It transcends state borders, it imposes it's own laws and those laws don't correspond to those of the host nation in this case. I'm not saying which legal system is best, just recognizing significant differences. An (eg) Pakistani immigrant can adopt English status, passports etc but their belief system.eill still dominate - it's a key factor of the beliefs.

So an English person of Islamic background is always caught between two stools and cannot follow the norm of any definition of being English - we live in a secular state which defines us: Islam is inconsistent with that on many levels.

I think Islam is the second biggest religion in this country (I read 30% but that seems high) so for this reason alone it's impossible to define "Englishness" when such a fundamental schism exists in the basics of separation of church and state

Not entirely sure if that reply is to me, GP…but I honestly don’t think the decline in the CoE, which has been evident throughout our lifetimes, has much to do with it. It’s many years since I was struck by the realisation that while Catholic churches appeared full of ordinary folk who felt no need to dress up, their CoE equivalent was populated by people who were in the choir and a few elderly people who felt the need to wear their Sunday best.

Not sure why there’s been so much mention of Islam either…that very definitely didn’t come from the OP, but from elsewhere.

Don’t agree with MA (or Tricky) about the qualities that make us English…they seem to me to be qualities of decency which can be found, not universally, throughout the World and, in my personal experience, certainly throughout Western Europe and North America.

Coincidentally I’m currently situated high up above a Spanish village which is known as the ‘Village of the Three Cultures’, those being Christian, Islam and Jewish. Despite the bloody past, they celebrate the contributions of those three cultures to the current village’s existence in a thoroughly positive and healthy way, and although today it’s more of a mixture of local Spanish, Dutch, German and Brits everyone appears to get on and, having been to countless bars, restaurants and supermarkets I can assure Tricky that the Brits do not hold the monopoly on being able to queue properly.

Maybe then, seeing as we have been unable to define it, there is - as RS and GP initially suggested - no such thing as ‘English identity’ which perhaps begs the question, what was Jenrick talking about…and why?