English identity?

[Geoff Parkstone]

Hmmm…except that ‘respect for the flag’ isn’t remotely unique to England is it? The traditional village fete? Maybe more so, although there are plenty of those in other countries too and I’m not sure about the ‘general feeling of Christianity’…that’s certainly not unique to England either and as plenty on here regard religion with a mixture of blame and contempt (MA, GP and myself at least) as anything else I think I’ll stick with the tea drinking nation of weather obsessives as the closest we’ve got.

No idea what your ‘actors’ comment means.

I think that for me at least, and I'm not sure about others. We (rA and I) have been at cross purposes in this debate. I am seeking to characterize Englishness; rA seems focused on "uniquely English" which is a very different thing. Whilst uniquely English might have existed a century and a half ago, world conflicts and trade, globalisation, the internet and other media I'd suggest has rendered no nation unique - except very remote locations.

Nations have become homogenous. Tea drinking unique to the English - ask the Chinese or Indians. Pubs - the Irish might demur. The fete - I've seen similar in Australia, USA.

The trouble is when you set out to assimilate the world you are in many ways guilty of imposing your own values on other nations who may adopt them when later independent - eg bureaucracy in India, Christianity across much of Africa, pioneering/entrepreneurial spirit in North America.

So I would contend that there is nothing uniquely English, but actually I'm glad of that as anything standing out from the norm would likely be negative it it hasn't been shared. So the rA argument that being polite isn't an English quality "because I met a polite Bulgarian once"* is specious. * illustration not a direct quote.

So let's focus on what qualities the English have, rather than what ones they are characterised by. I'd kick off with democratic, tolerant and inclusive at a macro level, generally amiable, welcoming and outgoing. Spiritual (thus avoiding the which religion argument) creative and scientific.

Nothing very unique here but these things I think go to build a picture. No elusive butterfly of a quality here but I challenge anyone to name a quality unique to any nation - even Vanuatan prowess at bungee jumping has been globalized.

[MadAmster]

…all of which you are entitled to do

As I’m entitled to consider the original post to have been a thinly veiled dig at a member of a political party you dislike which has misfired somewhat and prompted a discussion that has shown that, complicated as it is to pin down, there is still an ‘England’ and there is still ‘Englishness’ despite your efforts to demean it

You are indeed, entitled to have your own understanding of the words in a post, however, when the poster then says that was not the intention, I'd be interested to know why you appear not to believe him.

Let's look at the first paragraph QUOTE As Jenrick appears to have tripped himself up horribly on this one and simultaneously speeded up the prospect of Farage becoming Tory leader some time soon, he has set me wondering. UNQUOTE

Did Jenrick appear to trip himself up? Well, he said something and was then unable to quantify it, so, it seems he did trip himself up. I see nothing contentious in that part of the opening post.

The 2nd part? Possibly a superfluous addition and, as I'm in wondering mode, I wonder why rA thinks Farridge will be Blue Tory leader any time soon. He's already the leader (owner?) of a party with seats in Westminster. Will he defect? Would the Blues even want him?

[ramAnag]

Â…all of which you are entitled to do

As I’m entitled to consider the original post to have been a thinly veiled dig at a member of a political party you dislike which has misfired somewhat and prompted a discussion that has shown that, complicated as it is to pin down, there is still an ‘England’ and there is still ‘Englishness’ despite your efforts to demean it

Have it your own way, Anführer. Of course it’s true I don’t have much time for Jenrick but the thread was/is just an attempt to identify what being English actually means.
I’m not sure how it’s backfired, it’s provoked discussion which is the point of a forum, or what I can do to make you believe me - or that I actually care for that matter - but I do object to you accusing me of attempting to ‘demean’ Englishness…that was never my intention and tells me more about the chip on your shoulder than it should anything about me.

Incidentally, for what it’s worth, I play quite a significant role in our village fete - which doesn’t appear to have changed for years and is like something out of ‘Midsomer Murders’, but that’s all part of its charm. I have made no attempt to make it more ‘diverse’ although curiously it was cancelled this year, not certain why…we were away.
I also have a part to play in a number of local music events where, in the absence of an alternative venue, we use the local church. We’ve had a number of very well established folk/bluegrass performers along with some music from the Balkans and the Middle East. I didn’t actually have anything to do with booking the latter but our thoroughly pleasant vicar - as committed a Christian as you’ll find - seemed to enjoy it all enormously. Maybe he’s a little less blinkered than some.

P.S. Thanks MA…appreciated. My thoughts on Farage are…it has always been his intention to seek a higher profile. I believe the current candidates for the Tory leadership are far from outstanding and that, given the size of the Government’s majority, they will be on a hiding to nothing anyway. It reminds me of the ‘lame ducks’ the Tories were led by between Major and Cameron. IMO we now have a similar scenario and there are many of those on the right of the Tory Party who would welcome the intervention of a ‘personality’ politician like Farage to ‘rescue’ them. Hope I’m wrong.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I can see a possibility that Reform and Tories would "re-merge" - they are effectively splinter groups. The question as to what cost that would come at - promise of high office for Farage? - is an interesting one. However at best this would be in opposition to start with so "high office" is a bit of a misnomer.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Love the last para rA. Local vicar "as committed a Christian as you will find". I can't help but feel he'd be in the wrong job if he wasn't.

And as a Christian why wouldn't he enjoy Middle Eastern music - the Middle East is after all the birthplace of his leader. I've never met a vicar that didn't enjoy a good kebab either - especially if free!

[ramAnag]

Love the last para rA. Local vicar "as committed a Christian as you will find". I can't help but feel he'd be in the wrong job if he wasn't.

And as a Christian why wouldn't he enjoy Middle Eastern music - the Middle East is after all the birthplace of his leader. I've never met a vicar that didn't enjoy a good kebab either - especially if free!

Lol…take your point but I think we’ve all come across some quite ‘un Christian’ members of the clergy over the years.

I wasn’t suggesting he shouldn’t. I just found it admirable that a vicar should allow performances from other cultures - and a bar - in his/our church, especially when he knows most are unlikely to visit on a Sunday. It must be odd seeing his church with 50-60 people present for musical events knowing that his typical Sunday turn out will rarely make double figures.

I take your point about the difference between uniquely English and typically English however - Bulgarians apart (I’ve never met one, or a Russian or Romanian for that matter) - however I am relatively well travelled in other parts of Europe and America and I honestly don’t believe we (the English) can claim any sort of monopoly when politeness and fairness are concerned, indeed one of your own previous posts was quick to question the notion of Englishness being synonymous with ‘fair play’.

Anyway, hope you’re on the mend from whatever is ailing you and escape before the ‘Sunday shift’.

[Geoff Parkstone]

I don't know who on this thread, outside of within your head, has ever claimed an English monopoly on politeness or fairness.

Will be here Sunday - wonder if the Sally Army will come round drumming up funds

[MadAmster]

Love the last para rA. Local vicar "as committed a Christian as you will find". I can't help but feel he'd be in the wrong job if he wasn't.

And as a Christian why wouldn't he enjoy Middle Eastern music - the Middle East is after all the birthplace of his leader. I've never met a vicar that didn't enjoy a good kebab either - especially if free!

He was indeed, born there of parents also born there. All 3 are likely to have had swarthy skin and dark, curly hair. That begs the question why, even in the "Turin Shroud", JC is always depicted as having a "Western European / Caucasian" appearance? Would a more truthful representation have diminished the successful spread and, thus far, longevity of Christianity?

Portraits of Muhammed tend to depict someone of Middle eastern appearance. One of their own. Also part of the recipe for success?

[Ramshank72]

That would be an ecumenical matter.

[ramAnag]

I don't know who on this thread, outside of within your head, has ever claimed an English monopoly on politeness or fairness.

I think the following comment, made twice and eventually in bold, was pretty damned close…

‘As for being English I think of fair play, honour, patriotism for the homeland and sense of pride at being the worlds best for a while…we queue quietly put up with hassle etc’…

My point is that these are no more synonymous with being English than any other nation I’ve visited.