Matchday thread: Rams v Sheffield Utd

[Andy_Faber]

Just one thing to say, the halftime substitution wasn?t just a suicide note, it shows the pressure is getting to PW and his team because it couldn?t have been rationally thought through

[swaledale]

I?m not sure you can ?take issue?, Swale. It?s a fact, he?s got rid of our ?bright young things?, Knight, Bird and Cashin. That?s not being critical, it?s just an observation of what?s happened.
The question for me is whether we?re stronger than we were. I haven?t got time to go through all PW?s signings but there have been a lot. Imo two in particular have been excellent - Adams and Nelson. I also think Wilson was a good find and the goalkeeper too, although whether he?s any better than Wildsmith I?m not sure. Nyambe and Elder are very decent footballers but horribly injury prone and I have high hopes for the new striker, providing he gets some service.
Of the rest, from CBT to Waghorn and Bradley to Washington they tend to have been a collection of error prone sick notes. That may sound harsh but, over five windows now, it?s the truth and the list is long.
I hope this doesn?t sound ?entitled?, but players should want to come to Derby. Where else at our level over the last couple of seasons can you play in such a stadium in front of crowds that compare favourably with our two East Midlands top flight ?rivals?? Yet players do seem reluctant to come/stay which I understand is sometimes down to money, but I?m also beginning to wonder how much it?s down to playing for such an ordinary manager. I don?t see charisma and I don?t see great man management, Rooney for instance, who happens to be a player I rate, must feel as wanted as a fart in a spacesuit. Maybe I?m wrong or maybe something much more significant is?honestly don?t know.

How do you know its a FACT that Warne "got rid of" Knight. Bird and Cashin? Are you suggesting that Warne has the final say on these matters? Are you suggesting that the Board knowing the contract situation and also with the first 2 players, the financial restrictions the club was under at the time, didn't make this decision based on it being the best business decision? I really can't see how you can come to the conclusion that it was Warne who got rid of them, its pure speculation on your part.

Until this season, Derby were not able to financially offer what other clubs could and were in L1, the majority of players will (and who would blame them?) generally go for a combination of the best salary offer and where possible the best career prospects. Until Summer 2024, Derby couldn't offer that, Warne has had 1 transfer window where his budget was less restricted, though Clowes having lost ?14 million is clearly not making available millions.

As for Cashin, he nearly went last summer, he clearly wanted to go and indeed which player wouldn't when a Premier league club comes calling offering a significant uplift in wages and the chance to play at the highest level. Whats Warne going to do, tell the Board that he wants to keep an unhappy player, tell the board to stuff their ?10 million or whatever the deal is? Its disingenuous to suggest Warne got rid, in reality in situations like this a club like derby have little option other than to negotiate the best price for the player they can get. The message to Warne was, we will reinvest the proceeds to strengthen the squad and indeed they are doing so, on paper I'm impressed with the players they have recruited so far this season, Clarke presumably could have remained at Boro if he wanted to and the two Scandinavian players look good for this level.

Forgive me, but I didn't know you were privy to how Warne and the players interact with each other so not really sure how you reach the conclusion that Warne hasn't the man management skills required to attract players. In fact all the reports I hear is that he is refreshingly honest and has a good relationship with the players.

The issue of Warne's signings has been discussed many times, you speak as if other managers with much bigger budgets get it right every time! What is a fact is that until summer 2024, the team was cobbled together under a restricted wage and transfer budget, you must surely understand that restricts recruitment, this idea that a player would forgo say an extra 5K or more a week to play at Pride Park for Derby is wishful thinking. At least half the clubs in the championship have much bigger budgets than Derby, some of whom by the way aren't doing a whole lot better! Stoke by the way spent ?18.2 million on transfers last year!

As for injuries, yes unfortunate, but one can do all the due diligence and still get injuries, I guess Tottenham who have 9 first team players out injured are guilty of not buying well then? Or Man Utd, over ?300 million spent on players in the lower half of the premier league? This football management lark is not quite as simple as you seem to think.

As for Rooney, the player has been out for a long time with a serious injury, given the fact that players keep breaking down again, one can understand Warne's caution in playing him too soon. I agree that it seemed strange for him to be on the bench and not used when needed, but maybe he isn't fit enough to play more than 20 mins? Neither you or I know the facts, so your observation is based on pure speculation, I thought you liked facts not baseless assumptions.

You admit maybe your wrong, yes indeed, most of what you have posted is based on assumptions with no evidence. One can critique Warne for his selections, or his tactics and the results, but do you really think Warne wanted to sell those 3 players you mention? I mean why would he IF he had the choice?

[swaledale]

Just one thing to say, the halftime substitution wasn?t just a suicide note, it shows the pressure is getting to PW and his team because it couldn?t have been rationally thought through

Or Rooney wasn't fit enough to last 45 minutes?

[MadAmster]

Or Rooney wasn't fit enough to last 45 minutes?

If that was the case, why was he on the bench?

First game of 2025, against Wendy, Roons was om the bench and has been there ever since. If he's still not fit for 45 minutes then maybe he should retire.

[MadAmster]

I know it's a results based business and out last 8 results have been negative but, managing and/or coaching a squad is a complicated process.

Let's look at the League defeats. Of the 7, 6 were against teams in the top 9 at the time of the game. Where we have been this past month in terms of injuries, not a single game there where we wouldn't have suspected we may well lose. The other? Cardiff who made it 8 games unbeaten thanks, in part, to a wrongly disallowed effort from Yates and a couple of minutes of kamikaze "defending". Eejits on "social media" fail to look at the entire picture. They focus singularly on the result. Behind every result there's a plethora of reasons. Unfortunately, for me, the UEFA B course taught me to look for the reasons and, when I was coaching, to address those reasons.

We can't do much about refs or their assistants(Norwich, Cardiff as examples).

Injuries? If it's training routines that are helping cause them we could change that but, the coaching staff are all qualified. The medical staff are all qualified. The scientific crew are all qualified. They are all also professionals and I'd like to think that if any of them had the suspicion that the training was the cause, they'd open their mouths.

PW took over part way into our first season in L1. He took over a L1 squad built on zero transfer outlay. We narrowly missed the plaoyffs, finishing 7th. About half that L1 squad was out of contract. They were replaced by more L1 level players, again with a view to gaining promotion. We did it finishing 2nd.

Back in the Championship with a L1 squad. The club had a limited budget to spend on transfer fees. Spent, IMO, reasonably sensibly, on JWZ, Ebou and Kenzo. Cash and Nels were also of the "right" quality. The rest have been injured and/or still L1 quality. We may be "Derby County" but even we can't turn a squad of 75% L1 standard players into a midtable or better Champ side in season 1. Cash has gone. Clarke, Lars and Langas in and we still have money for the wide man and striker we still want. Get those in and we don't know what will happen results wise.

The next games? Norwich are 8th so no great expectation of a win there. After that we have 15 games left, 12 of which are against teams currently in the bottom 13. Teams we need to get points off or we are going down. With the 2 new centre halves, Lars plus whatever we get in today and the walking wounded getting fit again, who knows what the run in will bring?

Why do we have a mainly L1 standard squad? We had 2 years of being restricted to freebies, be they on loan or permanent signings. No transfer fees, no loan fees and no agent fees. That drastically reduces the size of the pool of players you can attract. Most of them are free for a reason and it's not because they are world beaters.

Knight left after 1 season in L1. he wanted Champ football and was, IIRC, out of contract. Bird wanted Champ football, was in the last year of his contract and wasn't guaranteed to get back up with Derby. He chose to leave. Cashin got yet another offer to go to BHA. This time we were in a financial position to hold out for maybe 10M which we could reinvest in the squad. 750K for Clarke. A rumoured 3.5M to 4M for Langas. Whatever fee we paid for Lars was probably already in the bank as we were adamant Cashin was going nowhere. In the end it looks like selling Cash makes good business sense. Sorry rA but I find the "got rid of" quote way off the mark.

The reasons I have put in this post are exactly what the detractors on "socials" are choosing to ignore. The amazing thing being that, back in August, most fans were targeting survival as the aim for the season. Recent changes in playing staff plus the return of the walking wounded could well be what we need to achieve survival. Nothing's guaranteed but, I think we've had a decent, promising window thus far and a new wide man and striker would be the icing on the cake.

My glass is still half full and there's good reason. I think Lars will get goals. I think Yates playing alongside him rather than him being the #9 will see him do better. A new wide man for the ammunition for the 2 of them would help as I don't think we'll see CBT again this season, if at all and NM and Barks haven't exactly set the world on fire this season, probably because they are (no longer?) Champ quality.

We could still go down, however, for reasons listed above, I think we'll survive. Unload more L1 players ij the summer and get Champ level ones in, thereby improving what looks like an already improved squad for the 2nd half of the season. No new wide man and/or no new striker in would not be helpful but also not disastrous.

[MadAmster]

Far from outplayed by the team in 2nd, Good volley from Kenzo 1st half good headers just over 2nd half from Kenzo and Clarke. They had the goal and a shot just wide of the post from Webster.

4 more shots than them as well.

[ramAnag]

How do you know its a FACT that Warne "got rid of" Knight. Bird and Cashin? Are you suggesting that Warne has the final say on these matters? Are you suggesting that the Board knowing the contract situation and also with the first 2 players, the financial restrictions the club was under at the time, didn't make this decision based on it being the best business decision? I really can't see how you can come to the conclusion that it was Warne who got rid of them, its pure speculation on your part.

Until this season, Derby were not able to financially offer what other clubs could and were in L1, the majority of players will (and who would blame them?) generally go for a combination of the best salary offer and where possible the best career prospects. Until Summer 2024, Derby couldn't offer that, Warne has had 1 transfer window where his budget was less restricted, though Clowes having lost ?14 million is clearly not making available millions.

As for Cashin, he nearly went last summer, he clearly wanted to go and indeed which player wouldn't when a Premier league club comes calling offering a significant uplift in wages and the chance to play at the highest level. Whats Warne going to do, tell the Board that he wants to keep an unhappy player, tell the board to stuff their ?10 million or whatever the deal is? Its disingenuous to suggest Warne got rid, in reality in situations like this a club like derby have little option other than to negotiate the best price for the player they can get. The message to Warne was, we will reinvest the proceeds to strengthen the squad and indeed they are doing so, on paper I'm impressed with the players they have recruited so far this season, Clarke presumably could have remained at Boro if he wanted to and the two Scandinavian players look good for this level.

Forgive me, but I didn't know you were privy to how Warne and the players interact with each other so not really sure how you reach the conclusion that Warne hasn't the man management skills required to attract players. In fact all the reports I hear is that he is refreshingly honest and has a good relationship with the players.

The issue of Warne's signings has been discussed many times, you speak as if other managers with much bigger budgets get it right every time! What is a fact is that until summer 2024, the team was cobbled together under a restricted wage and transfer budget, you must surely understand that restricts recruitment, this idea that a player would forgo say an extra 5K or more a week to play at Pride Park for Derby is wishful thinking. At least half the clubs in the championship have much bigger budgets than Derby, some of whom by the way aren't doing a whole lot better! Stoke by the way spent ?18.2 million on transfers last year!

As for injuries, yes unfortunate, but one can do all the due diligence and still get injuries, I guess Tottenham who have 9 first team players out injured are guilty of not buying well then? Or Man Utd, over ?300 million spent on players in the lower half of the premier league? This football management lark is not quite as simple as you seem to think.

As for Rooney, the player has been out for a long time with a serious injury, given the fact that players keep breaking down again, one can understand Warne's caution in playing him too soon. I agree that it seemed strange for him to be on the bench and not used when needed, but maybe he isn't fit enough to play more than 20 mins? Neither you or I know the facts, so your observation is based on pure speculation, I thought you liked facts not baseless assumptions.

You admit maybe your wrong, yes indeed, most of what you have posted is based on assumptions with no evidence. One can critique Warne for his selections, or his tactics and the results, but do you really think Warne wanted to sell those 3 players you mention? I mean why would he IF he had the choice?

Alright chap, calm down.

Of course you’re right, others other than PW have a big say in who comes and who leaves and I’m obviously not privy to everything that is said between players and the manager.

What I’m trying to do is look objectively at PW’s achievements and dealings since his tenure began. I’m more than happy to give him the credit for acquiring the likes of Adams, Nelson and Nyambe etc, but equally if he is going to be given the credit for the good things then he has to take some responsibility for the less good things and the fact is that four of the youngsters - Bird, Knight, Cashin and Sibley - who came close to keeping us in the Championship under Rooney and Rosenior have all left.

Did he want them to go? Probably not and I appreciate that their departures have been largely financially driven but, as I say, it is a fact that they are players who have departed under Warne’s tenure. Nothing more, nothing less.

As regards man management. Maybe the four aforementioned departures have something to do with that and maybe they don’t. Of course I don’t know, and neither do you. The case of Rooney however is an obvious example of poor man management imo.

Rooney is a talented right sided defender who has had a dreadful time with injuries. He’s been back on the bench for the last five matches or so and with the injuries to Nyambe, Wilson and Nelson might have been expected to step up and play a part.
Of course no one wants to rush him back but if that’s the case don’t put him on the bench. We’ve seen midfield disrupted by moving Adams to CD and it seems to have become a case of anyone except Rooney. I, for one, don’t understand it and even you have queried it. If he’s not fit then say so and don’t name him amongst the subs, but imo, this attitude of - ‘we’ve got an injury crisis on the right side of the defence but I’ll try anything except Rooney’- does no one any favours, least of all the player himself, and needs explanation.

[Geoff Parkstone]

"What I?m trying to do is look objectively at PW?s achievements"

I think this is the core of the problem - I don't think you are being objective but rather letting your inherent bias against Warne take over - you have regularly expressed the view that Rosenior should have remained instead.

Warne may not be perfect but he got us promoted on a shoe string and hasn't had the funding to push us on. Maybe now with the cash cash he maybe able to strengthen squad in a few places and enable us to starting getting out of the hole we find ourselves in. Maybe not. We can't be spunking the funds away on manager compensation now.

Losing Cashin is disappointing but football is a business and maybe getting 3 or 4 decent players in is better than having one star player stood on the deck of a sinking ship frantically trying to plug holes

[Ramshank72]

We could still go down, however, for reasons listed above, I think we'll survive. Unload more L1 players ij the summer and get Champ level ones in, thereby improving what looks like an already improved squad for the 2nd half of the season. No new wide man and/or no new striker in would not be helpful but also not disastrous.

This is a really important, and very much dependent on us remaining in this league. We'll struggle to get those players in L1.
It's a tough dilemma for the owner. Do they keep stick, hope we stay up, or hope that if we go down we come back up. Or do they intervene now, and make a change to try and inspire survival in the current league. Both are a gamble, there's no guarantee that changing manager will keep us up. There's also no guarantee that we'll stay up, or come back up if we go down.
Or, if the owner's intention is simply to survive as a club, is it such a big deal which league we operate in? Fluctuating between L1 and Championship might be viable for a club of Derby's finances.
Either way, I hope we stay up with PW, but replacing in the summer if the right manager is available would be my preference, unless PW shows some improvement. Odds may be against us, but those last 7 matches we should have picked up SOME points.

[ramAnag]

"What I?m trying to do is look objectively at PW?s achievements"

I think this is the core of the problem - I don't think you are being objective but rather letting your inherent bias against Warne take over - you have regularly expressed the view that Rosenior should have remained instead.

Warne may not be perfect but he got us promoted on a shoe string and hasn't had the funding to push us on. Maybe now with the cash cash he maybe able to strengthen squad in a few places and enable us to starting getting out of the hole we find ourselves in. Maybe not. We can't be spunking the funds away on manager compensation now.

Losing Cashin is disappointing but football is a business and maybe getting 3 or 4 decent players in is better than having one star player stood on the deck of a sinking ship frantically trying to plug holes

That’s not true, GP. During his first season I queried the wisdom of replacing Rosenior with Warne and seeing as we finished the season in exactly the position we were in when he took over that wasn’t unreasonable. I thought Rosenior was hard done to - even more so by Hull - but I doubt that I’ve mentioned him since.

In his second season I obviously wanted Warne to do well and although it certainly didn’t seem very likely prior to the signing of Adams, Swale called it correctly and we surpassed expectation by finishing second, an achievement which I was very happy to fully acknowledge.

The question has possibly always been, can PW build on his achievement and, for the first time, keep the team in the Championship? That looked likely until about ten weeks into the new season but the last three plus months have yielded very little and some of PW’s decisions/public utterances have, imo, been concerning.

I have absolutely no bias against Paul Warne. I want him, and Derby, to do well but after one away win all season, not a single point in 2025 and eight defeats on the bounce questions are bound to be asked.

Just out of interest, you often snipe from the sidelines, but at what point are you going to reach a decision?
Personally, at the risk of getting ahead of myself, I doubt we’ll get anything at Norwich which will put enormous pressure on us against Gary Rowett’s re******sed Oxford. Should we remain pointless this year after those two matches then the situation will be very, very bleak. At that point, which I obviously hope never arrives, would you stick possibly thinking, ‘well at least we’ve got a manager who knows how to get us up next season’, or twist?