O/T And we wonder why we trust Starmer

[ragingpup]

Starmer is willing to sacrifice our kids for his handlers!

As America tries to negotiate a starting point with Russia Starmer is offering up our troops as peace makers!

Even the European leaders are now laughing at him!

What do you want to see as an outcome in Ukraine? Trump says that he hopes he could conclude a deal that would mean Ukraine not having to concede "much land". Are you in agreement with Richard Tice's position in this interview then?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWIY...channel=TalkTV

Trump appears to accept that he can reach a deal but Ukraine would have to concede some land, and halt it's request, as a European sovereign nation, to join Nato. So if you were a soveriegn Ukranian, wanting to exercise it's democratice right to protect it's borders and join whichever international organisations that your elected leaders wish to join, how would you respond to external countries both taking part of your territory and forbidding you to carry out an action you, as a sovereign nation, wish to undertake?

[frogmiller]

What do you want to see as an outcome in Ukraine? Trump says that he hopes he could conclude a deal that would mean Ukraine not having to concede "much land". Are you in agreement with Richard Tice's position in this interview then?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWIY...channel=TalkTV

Trump appears to accept that he can reach a deal but Ukraine would have to concede some land, and halt it's request, as a European sovereign nation, to join Nato. So if you were a soveriegn Ukranian, wanting to exercise it's democratice right to protect it's borders and join whichever international organisations that your elected leaders wish to join, how would you respond to external countries both taking part of your territory and forbidding you to carry out an action you, as a sovereign nation, wish to undertake?

I haven't seen the interview so I am not aware of Richard Tice.

I want the war to stop! I want to stop paying for a war that could be stopped! I don't want my kids, your kids or anyone elses kids to die fighting in a war if it can be stopped!

You mean like Ireland?

[frogmiller]

Raging.

There is a lady who moved from the Ukraine to our village at the start of the war. She speaks Russia and we communicate through a translate app on her phone. I see her every other day on the dog walking ruit

She has a spring in her step now! She wants to go home!

[ragingpup]

I haven't seen the interview so I am not aware of Richard Tice.

I want the war to stop! I want to stop paying for a war that could be stopped! I don't want my kids, your kids or anyone elses kids to die fighting in a war if it can be stopped!

You mean like Ireland?

I'm sorry that you are having to pay some money in order to contribute to a fellow European sovereign country defending themselves from an autocratic dictatorship!

I would agree that if the Ukranian people, via their democratically elected leader, were happy to negotiate a settlement, that involved them losing X territory and were also happy to be barred from joining NATO, when all other European sovereign countries were able to do so, then I'd be happy for that to happen. But as it stands, the majority of the Ukrainian people, led by their democratically elected leader are showing no signs of wanting to do that. So, it looks like we have a choice (assuming Putin persists with his invasion): we either work with other European sovereign countries to find a way of defeating Russia so that our fellow European sovereign country regains it's own territory for it's people, or we withdraw completely and let Russia take as much of Ukraine as they like. And then of course, help himself to territories beyond there as we will have signalled that he is free to do so without intervention. I take it you're on the side of the latter?

Interesting comparison with Ireland, if we should want to go back to 12th century history to show comparables. I think a greater comparison was Hitler's plan to expand into Poland and Eastwards beyond to create the fabled German 'living space'. Thankfully, we stood up against that one.

[frogmiller]

I'm sorry that you are having to pay some money in order to contribute to a fellow European sovereign country defending themselves from an autocratic dictatorship!

I would agree that if the Ukranian people, via their democratically elected leader, were happy to negotiate a settlement, that involved them losing X territory and were also happy to be barred from joining NATO, when all other European sovereign countries were able to do so, then I'd be happy for that to happen. But as it stands, the majority of the Ukrainian people, led by their democratically elected leader are showing no signs of wanting to do that. So, it looks like we have a choice (assuming Putin persists with his invasion): we either work with other European sovereign countries to find a way of defeating Russia so that our fellow European sovereign country regains it's own territory for it's people, or we withdraw completely and let Russia take as much of Ukraine as they like. And then of course, help himself to territories beyond there as we will have signalled that he is free to do so without intervention. I take it you're on the side of the latter?

Interesting comparison with Ireland, if we should want to go back to 12th century history to show comparables. I think a greater comparison was Hitler's plan to expand into Poland and Eastwards beyond to create the fabled German 'living space'. Thankfully, we stood up against that one.

I'm sorry too! The West promissed Russia that they would not expand NATO but it has!

You can read all of the USAID sponsored media that has currupted us and the truth and made it acceptable for the likes of Biden to profit. The gain of function Labs of which the USA have admitted to their being up to 30 labs. Do you remember the white flags of the media telling us all that Russia was targetting them, Yes I took that Shyte in as well.

The EU would not allow the Ukraine to join because they were seen to be corrupt. You talk of democracy in the Ukrain is laughable! Ukraine is where opposition parties are being banned! Imagine that in Britain. Labour takes Britian into war then banns the Tories!

The rules of NATO have been set for years and it is that 'NO' country which has any occupated territory should be allowed to join!

Do you think Putin would go any further?

What the Germans did to the Ukrainians and the Russians was no comparrison! The weather wlost that one for Hitler as well as the downfall and stupid activities of Benito Mussolini! But then again if the Russians had the same railway track gauge than the Germans it may have been a different story again.

The Irish reference was to prove that the overtaking of a country can be a peaceful one just like in Cyprus! They're not happy but they're not at war anymore!

I want the war over and it can be done through negotiations but others want to feed the war machine and we can pay the debt forever whilst generations die!

I may be in the minority on this one!

[John2]

The West promissed Russia that they would not expand NATO but it has!

You seem so gullible to Russian propaganda/misinformation. Let me prove it.

"The West" has made no such promise:

International diplomacy is conducted by convention and agreement.

Nobody has the authority to represent "the West." Instead, conversations are held by representatives, and those who agree become party to them by signing.

I suspect you supported Brexit because of a desire to "make our own laws" and not be dictated to by Brussels.

Yet, I suspect you consider a 1990 conversation between then-U.S. Secretary of State James Baker and then-U.S.S.R. Leader Gorbachev, where Baker said NATO would not expand “one inch to the east [of a reunified Germany],” as eternally binding on all sovereign nations that were not even present? The U.S.S.R doesn't even exist any more.

It's incredible how effective these misinformation campaigns are.

Prove me wrong. Can you point to a formal agreement you're referring to?

[frogmiller]

Assist
There was no formal written agreement regarding NATO's expansion into Eastern Europe, but U.S. officials did provide informal assurances to Soviet leaders that NATO would not expand eastward during the negotiations for German reunification in 1990. This has led to ongoing disputes about whether such promises were made and subsequently violated.

[frogmiller]

I don?t live in the UK so I didn?t vote in the Brexit referendum although it has **** all to do with you!

[John2]

Assist
There was no formal written agreement regarding NATO's expansion into Eastern Europe, but U.S. officials did provide informal assurances to Soviet leaders that NATO would not expand eastward during the negotiations for German reunification in 1990. This has led to ongoing disputes about whether such promises were made and subsequently violated.

OK, let's assume that's true. To clarify, you believe that informal assurances made by unelected representatives 35 years ago with a state that no longer exists are more significant than the sovereign rights of individual states with contemporary elected governments.

Am I misunderstanding your position?

[ragingpup]

I'm sorry too! The West promissed Russia that they would not expand NATO but it has!

You can read all of the USAID sponsored media that has currupted us and the truth and made it acceptable for the likes of Biden to profit. The gain of function Labs of which the USA have admitted to their being up to 30 labs. Do you remember the white flags of the media telling us all that Russia was targetting them, Yes I took that Shyte in as well.

The EU would not allow the Ukraine to join because they were seen to be corrupt. You talk of democracy in the Ukrain is laughable! Ukraine is where opposition parties are being banned! Imagine that in Britain. Labour takes Britian into war then banns the Tories!

The rules of NATO have been set for years and it is that 'NO' country which has any occupated territory should be allowed to join!

Do you think Putin would go any further?

What the Germans did to the Ukrainians and the Russians was no comparrison! The weather wlost that one for Hitler as well as the downfall and stupid activities of Benito Mussolini! But then again if the Russians had the same railway track gauge than the Germans it may have been a different story again.

The Irish reference was to prove that the overtaking of a country can be a peaceful one just like in Cyprus! They're not happy but they're not at war anymore!

I want the war over and it can be done through negotiations but others want to feed the war machine and we can pay the debt forever whilst generations die!

I may be in the minority on this one!

I think the accusation that there is much corruption in Ukraine is a fair one but doesn't take into account that the country only emerged from Russian control in the 90s and is still an extremely immature democracy, but one that was recognised as running a free and fair election in 2018 and when accusing it of 'banning opposition parties' doesn't take into account that it is in a state of war and responding to an extreme situation. This article gives what I would say a fair summary of a complex situation:

https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-dem...russia-1690505

Do I think Putin would go any further? Very hard to say, but I would be very fearful if I was in any of the former USSR controlled territories. The bottom line is that a sovereign nation is being invaded in Europe, it's territory seized and I disagree with you that we should turn a blind eye to that. Negotiation isn't even relevent if it isn't what the majority of the Ukrainian people living there want.

'The West' promised Russia it wouldn't expand NATO - John's taken that on, but I had to belly laugh!