O/T:- Trump Presidency 2.0 [hic sunt dracones]

[jackal2]

I think youre being very naive if you think that minerals deal wasnt a crock from the start or that it wasnt a pre planned ambush.

Zelensky presumably saw and agreed to the terms of the deal in order to make the journey, and I'm not sure what Trump or Vance gained from having to cancel the signing ceremony designed to show off Trump's achievement as the great dealmaker. Watching the whole thing through I think it's what appeared to be, in fact the changes in body language by the second reveal it: a meeting that went well for the first half hour but then fell apart, and from which none of the participants gained any particular benefit, in fact quite the opposite.

[Old_pie]

It's pretty clear what the new rules are under Trump - kiss my arse and I'll be your friend, refuse to kiss my arse and I'm your enemy. Shamefully, the UK government and the UK monarchy have decided to kiss his arse. Trump is the typical school bully, I've got more money than you so do as I say or I'll crush you. A united Europe might be the only thing big enough to stand up to his bullying, but 52% of us decided we didn't want to be part of a united Europe. I always thought Brexit was a really bad idea, but I never thought it would get this bad.

Trump: Zelensky you've got to lick my arse like I've licked Putin's.
Zelensky: Eff off, we'll fight alone if we have to

Clearly Trump and Putin have a plan to share Ukraine between them. Brexit does not stop the Europeans getting together. The EU haven't intervened sufficiently to help Ukraine. There must be enough Western power, not just Europe, to rally against the USA, kick them out of their bases, impose tariffs, get away from the awful M$oft and X systems.

My worst fears of my post #695 seem to be coming to fruition.

Oh, and take those golf courses off of him and bin the invitation to come to the see the King.

What's worse is that the Americans probably love him the more for what he's doing.

[BigFatPie]

Zelensky presumably saw and agreed to the terms of the deal in order to make the journey, and I'm not sure what Trump or Vance gained from having to cancel the signing ceremony designed to show off Trump's achievement as the great dealmaker. Watching the whole thing through I think it's what appeared to be, in fact the changes in body language by the second reveal it: a meeting that went well for the first half hour but then fell apart, and from which none of the participants gained any particular benefit, in fact quite the opposite.

Do you not think its possible/likely that they got Zelenskyy, obviously not wanting to lose US support, over to Washington on the pretence of signing an at best vague deal to then blow it up and say *we did our best* before then withdrawing US support( I dont claim to know why Trump is all in with Putin, Im sure weve heard all the theories).

These sorts of people always need cover stories.

[jackal2]

Do you not think its possible/likely that they got Zelenskyy, obviously not wanting to lose US support, over to Washington on the pretence of signing an at best vague deal to then blow it up and say *we did our best* before then withdrawing US support( I dont claim to know why Trump is all in with Putin, Im sure weve heard all the theories).

These sorts of people always need cover stories.

I think if the deal had been that vague, they wouldn't even have got Zelenskyy (congratulations on right spelling!) as far as the Oval Office. Yes he's in a bad position, but whatever was in those papers must have been credible enough to get him to sit in the room and believe it was worth his while.

Whatever people make of him, I think Trump serves Trump, and if Trump thinks he can manipulate Europe and the Ukraine into doing what he wants by playing the pro-Putin card then he'll use it for as long as it suits him. Likewise, if at some point in the future it suits him to throw Putin under the bus because somebody else has something better to offer in return, I think he would do that too.

I don't doubt that Putin wanted Trump in the White House rather than Biden, because he knew Trump would at least negotiate to him and that the American President (whoever it is) effectively decides who is a 'pariah state' and who isn't, but if Putin at any point does something to undermine Trump's interests I've got no doubt Trump would drop him like a bad habit and call him a "bad person"... until he did something Trump liked again.

There is a critique of Trump that I think is correct, whatever political angle it comes from. He's motivated by money, power and ego and is as cynical as they come. He will work with anyone and likewise discard anyone if it suits him, even swapping back and forth without any embarrassment - that was yesterday, this is now. He's got that ruthless streak, and he's no fool. He might not speak or act like a politician is supposed to, but he can see opportunity and identify weakness like a shark smells blood.

It's no coincidence he used to do a lot of deal making with boxing promoters and a certain wrestling promoter who had the same mindset: if you were useful to their business at a given time then they were your best friend, but if you were not useful or a spent force you were cast off or even regarded as the enemy. They're not loyal, but they will drop any grudge they have against someone if doing business with them again makes sense.

I can quite see why these individuals are not regarded as "nice" people, because they're really not, but it is said nice guys come last. If ever there was a character-type designed to survive if not thrive in the psychopathic game that is international politics, this is it. That's why so many seem to end up there.

There's certainly never any shortage of theories and rumours. I thought Putin was supposed to have died of cancer or Parkinsons by now. The reality is that the trusted western media were clearly peddling BS, or at least being over-optimistic on the timescale.

[SmiffyPie]

Are you ok now with putting British troops on the ground in Ukraine ?

Yes.

[Mud Pie]

I think if the deal had been that vague, they wouldn't even have got Zelenskyy (congratulations on right spelling!) as far as the Oval Office. Yes he's in a bad position, but whatever was in those papers must have been credible enough to get him to sit in the room and believe it was worth his while.

Whatever people make of him, I think Trump serves Trump, and if Trump thinks he can manipulate Europe and the Ukraine into doing what he wants by playing the pro-Putin card then he'll use it for as long as it suits him. Likewise, if at some point in the future it suits him to throw Putin under the bus because somebody else has something better to offer in return, I think he would do that too.

I don't doubt that Putin wanted Trump in the White House rather than Biden, because he knew Trump would at least negotiate to him and that the American President (whoever it is) effectively decides who is a 'pariah state' and who isn't, but if Putin at any point does something to undermine Trump's interests I've got no doubt Trump would drop him like a bad habit and call him a "bad person"... until he did something Trump liked again.

There is a critique of Trump that I think is correct, whatever political angle it comes from. He's motivated by money, power and ego and is as cynical as they come. He will work with anyone and likewise discard anyone if it suits him, even swapping back and forth without any embarrassment - that was yesterday, this is now. He's got that ruthless streak, and he's no fool. He might not speak or act like a politician is supposed to, but he can see opportunity and identify weakness like a shark smells blood.

It's no coincidence he used to do a lot of deal making with boxing promoters and a certain wrestling promoter who had the same mindset: if you were useful to their business at a given time then they were your best friend, but if you were not useful or a spent force you were cast off or even regarded as the enemy. They're not loyal, but they will drop any grudge they have against someone if doing business with them again makes sense.

I can quite see why these individuals are not regarded as "nice" people, because they're really not, but it is said nice guys come last. If ever there was a character-type designed to survive if not thrive in the psychopathic game that is international politics, this is it. That's why so many seem to end up there.

There's certainly never any shortage of theories and rumours. I thought Putin was supposed to have died of cancer or Parkinsons by now. The reality is that the trusted western media were clearly peddling BS, or at least being over-optimistic on the timescale.

"Trump serves Trump" and "nice guys come last" sounds like a terrible rationale for the leader of the most militarily and economically powerful leader on the planet to me, never mind for the patriarch of US society.

[andy6025]

Saw this take of the meeting on twitter and I agree with most of it:

I watched the entire press conference with Zelensky. There was 40 minutes of discussion up to the argument. Most people saw at most the last ten minutes. The whole video gives the proper context.

When I first watched the argument without the proper context, I thought it was possible that Trump and Vance ambushed Zelensky or were even trying to humiliate him. That's not what happened.

You had 40 minutes of calm conversation. Vance made a point that didn't attack Zelensky and wasn't even addressed to him, and Zelensky clearly started the argument.

In the first 40 minutes, Zelensky kept trying to go beyond what was negotiated in the deal. When Trump was asked a question, it was always "we'll see." Zelensky made blanket assertions that there would be no negotiating with Putin, and that Russia would pay for the war. When Trump said that it was a tragedy that people on both sides were dying, Zelensky interjected that the Russians were the invaders.

For his part, Trump made clear that the US would continue delivering military aid. All Zelensky had to do was remain calm for a few more minutes and they would've signed a deal.

The argument started when Trump pointed out that it would be hard to make a deal if you talk about Putin the way Zelensky does. Vance interjects to make the reasonable point that Biden called Putin names and that didn't get us anywhere.

The Zelensky/Trump dynamic was calm and stable. It was when Vance spoke that Zelensky started to interrogate him. Throughout the press conference to that point, everyone was making their arguments directly to the audience. Zelensky decided to challenge Vance and ask him hostile questions. He went back to his point that Putin never sticks to ceasefires, once again implying that negotiations are pointless. Why on earth would you do this? Then came the fight we all saw.

Zelensky was minutes away from being home free, and he would have had the deal and new commitments from the Trump administration. The point Vance made was directed against Biden and the media, taking them to task for speaking in moralistic terms. This offended Zelensky, and that began the argument.

I've been a fan of Zelensky up to this point, but this showed so much incompetence, if not emotional instability, that I don't see how he recovers from this. The relationship with the administration is broken. Ukraine should probably go with new leadership at this point.

[Big Bob]

Trump is like a school yard bully. Same as the rest of his cronies. Absolute lunatic

[slack_pie]

It certainly looked like Trump and Vance jumped at the opportunity to humiliate him in front of the world. I've never seen anything like it. Towards the end, it really felt like they'd overplayed the act with the whole "you don't get to dictate how we'll feel" thing. Bizarre, but ultimately it's all political theatre.

[Old_pie]

Saw this take of the meeting on twitter and I agree with most of it:

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I've been a fan of Zelensky up to this point, but this showed so much incompetence, if not emotional instability, that I don't see how he recovers from this. The relationship with the administration is broken. Ukraine should probably go with new leadership at this point.

Oh, I think most of us had the view you were a fan of Putin

Three years of what Zelensky has suffered and the suffering he has seen has taken its toll. Hearing Trump echo Putin's words from time to time must have put the fear of god in him. Trump thinks he holds all the cards, probably true. The American public seems to be hearing what they want. I dread to think of the outcome of any discussion between the King and Trump on this issue, but some past royalty would have Trump in Tower (not the Trump Tower).