OT Border Control State of Emergency

[frogmiller]

Sorry, you have an estimated 400k what? Asylum seekers? Are you saying that UK has taken in a million asylum seekers in 2 years whilst France has taken in 400k? I think you're correct with the numbers of French asylum seekers in the last 2 years, but where do you get that the UK has taken a million?

Illegal immigrants it said on one news outlet. If this is correct then why are they not in the system? We have an identity card and the only way to receive any benefit is to do so online.
To get on any training course you have to download an app.
The black market here is rife even though we have all these things in place.

There are training courses set up for immigrants, I used to run a workshop for them and kids with social problems.
It was us that found housing for them if they were desperate using other charities.

The government don’t have the skills to do what is needed although there are many good people working on the projects.

The immigration policies are killing the system here as it is there. The pot of money is almost empty. The hospitals are overstretched, the education system is under too much pressure and the growth needed is being stifled by bad policy.

Unless there is a reset that will allow the millions have already flooded Europe then there is no chance of integration like you are enjoying in your life.

I think that you are blinkered by your good fortune. Your education, your job, your outlook on Britain as a colonising nation that should somehow be punished. Your willingness to give money for wars and to let the next generation pay for it.

There are many like me that think that you are wrong and that your liberal ideals are inhibiting your need to see it from other peoples position.

[ragingpup]

Illegal immigrants it said on one news outlet. If this is correct then why are they not in the system? We have an identity card and the only way to receive any benefit is to do so online.
To get on any training course you have to download an app.
The black market here is rife even though we have all these things in place.

There are training courses set up for immigrants, I used to run a workshop for them and kids with social problems.
It was us that found housing for them if they were desperate using other charities.

The government don’t have the skills to do what is needed although there are many good people working on the projects.

The immigration policies are killing the system here as it is there. The pot of money is almost empty. The hospitals are overstretched, the education system is under too much pressure and the growth needed is being stifled by bad policy.

Unless there is a reset that will allow the millions have already flooded Europe then there is no chance of integration like you are enjoying in your life.

I think that you are blinkered by your good fortune. Your education, your job, your outlook on Britain as a colonising nation that should somehow be punished. Your willingness to give money for wars and to let the next generation pay for it.

There are many like me that think that you are wrong and that your liberal ideals are inhibiting your need to see it from other peoples position.

Ok, so your claiming that 1 million asylum seekers have entered the UK in the last 2 years but really you are referring to legal migrants who have arrived to take up vacancies in the UK? So just to be clear, France by some way outnumbers the UK in terms of numbers of asylum seekers it processes, but it is correct to raise, whether you meant to or not, that France takes in far less legal migrants than the UK, or at least has done in recent years, and I can see why this concerns so many people.

But why has this happened?

1) International students make up roughly a third of these. Partly due to the UK gov agreeing that international students could live and work in the UK for 2 years following graduation as well as aggressive recruitment from UK universities who had their funding cut successively by the government through the austerity years. In short, without international students, many if not most universities would close. Some would think that a good thing, I think not

2) Post Brexit, the government lowered it's visa requirements to allow a greater number of health and social care workers to work in Britain. Our poor pay and conditions along with the often complex nature of care work meant we were left with thousands of vacancies to fill, hence the government granting these lower skills visa requirements. Similar in food processing and hospitality. All essential jobs that needed filling.

So huge drivers behind all of this is long term political decisions and it is interesting to note the difference between France and the UK. France on the whole offers better pay and protections to such lower skilled professions and therefore you could say that they successfully recruit into these sectors themselves. I can't say if they culturally value these jobs more, but hard to imagine them being valued less than in the UK. So you would be right: we are creating skills gaps due to what seems to be lowering of pay, conditions and status to some essential services and relying on immigrant labour to plug those gaps. I don't have a problem with that concern.

But what are the alternatives going forward? As I've already said we can invest masiively, and I mean massively, to train and skill up our domestic workforce. I think many of us if not most that this would be a desirable solution rather than importing the workforce. As long as there is a substantial workforce to train up and service all of of these and other jobs that need doing, but with the declining birthrate, it's not clear how long that can be sustained. I'm at the place of, 'Ok, I can buy into this idea - but the cost is going to be huge - how are we going to pay for it?'. I keep asking that on here but no one seems able to answer it?

Further, if part of the solution is to raise wages of both public and private sector jobs, have you, Farage or anyone done an impact assessment on that with those industries? What would the impact on an employer be if suddenly asked to add 20% to their workforce salaries? Would employers be able to afford that? What would you do if they refuse? If the NHS and public sector are going to have to add 20% onto their worksforce's salaries, how is that going to be paid for as well as all of the retraining and skilling up programmes w're all goingt o have to pay for.

I'd llove to hear answers about how all of these ambitions will be paid for. I would have expected that Farage, having led with a commitment to force some of my staff out of the country if he comes to power might have done some assessment on what the costs and impact on all of us this is going to have, but unless I missed it he hasn't said anything on this yet? Why do you think that might be?

I hear your observations on public services being stretched - but I just can't agree that this is all just due to immigration. It is due to chronic underfunding in the last 20 years. Most of the 'Boriswave' migrants arrive already trained and ready to do their jobs, are at an age where they aren't a drain on doctors and hospitals when set against the amount they are bringing in in taxes, spending etc. In short, we could indulge the fantasy and banish all of the post 2020 migrants and in my opinion there would be minimal difference to the vast machine of the NHS and public services - we would still be waiting for appointments and suffering poor public services - because we don't fund them enough. Not blaming anyone but us for this - we only vote for politicians that convince us that we can have great public services without us having to increase our tax contributions. We've made our own bed there, so don't see why we should blame migrants for it. All just my opinion of course.

And some personal stuff at the end:

You say "I think that you are blinkered by your good fortune. Your education, your job": Just for info, I failed badly at school and only got into HE through an adult access course. I was raised in a very working class pit village, both parents were alcoholics, I was homeless for 2 years as young adult, on the dole until i did the access course. My post school years living in piss smelling DHSS accomodation with drugs parties above me all night didn't kill me, but I'm not sure it was the shine of fortune upon me that you make out here.


"your outlook on Britain as a colonising nation that should somehow be punished". When have I ever said that? Why suddenly throwing that at me??

"Your willingness to give money for wars and to let the next generation pay for it." Again, WTF? When would I ever say that? I joined the protest against the Iraq war, pressured my MPs against repeating further idiotic policies in Afghanistan and doing likewise with current Labour MP over Labours role in providing arms to Israel to use in Gaza. Where TF did you get the idea that I'm a warlord??

"There are many like me that think that you are wrong" - can't disagree with this, especially on Millersmad. But we're all entitled to an opinion. We all have free speech arter all...

" and that your liberal ideals are inhibiting your need to see it from other peoples position." Please see stuff on my background. I come from a Brexit town and have friends who express the same opinions on here, including my closest pal. I understand why they are saying it, in some cases am quite frightened by why they are saying it, but I understand why. But the thing that frightens me more, and the thing that we have never really encountered in post war tech world, is the willingness to share and swallow so much information that is clearly not true, and - astonishingly - the willingness that many people have to continue to believe in a presented fact, even when it is demonstrated as untrue to them. This is a terrifying development.

If anyone is still awake after this, well done.

[KerrAvon]

2) Post Brexit, the government lowered it's visa requirements to allow a greater number of health and social care workers to work in Britain. Our poor pay and conditions along with the often complex nature of care work meant we were left with thousands of vacancies to fill, hence the government granting these lower skills visa requirements. .

I think that you are underestimating the effect of Brexit.

Post 2004, a lot of jobs in the UK economy were filled by 20 something Poles etc., who saw better opportunities in the UK than in their home countries and were willing to jump on a bus or plane to give it a try.

Post Brexit, the UK has had to go farther afield to find workers, but if you are recruiting from, say, The Philippines or India, the act of moving to the UK is a much bigger step.

A Pole is able to nip on a WizzAir flight to Warsaw see family for the weekend, but nipping over to Manila isn't an option.

The effect of that is that the workers brought into the country from farther afield in the Post Brexit 'Boris Wave' are more likely to bring dependants with them.

There's another possible Brexit impact. Take a look at the graph in this document showing the numbers of asylum seekers who have arrived into the UK:

https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...ylum-in-the-uk

It's striking how the numbers soared after the implementation of Brexit.

I'm open to other possibilities, but could Brexit and the consequential withdrawal from the Dublin Arrangements have emboldened people to come to the UK, knowing that the risk of being returned to other EU countries had been reduced?

The irony of course is that the people who sold Brexit as the solution to everything don't talk about that anymore. Instead they are now selling ending immigration and potentially removing people who are settled here as the solution to everything. And the same people are buying into it...

[MillerBill]

I think that you are underestimating the effect of Brexit.

Post 2004, a lot of jobs in the UK economy were filled by 20 something Poles etc., who saw better opportunities in the UK than in their home countries and were willing to jump on a bus or plane to give it a try.

Post Brexit, the UK has had to go farther afield to find workers, but if you are recruiting from, say, The Philippines or India, the act of moving to the UK is a much bigger step.

A Pole is able to nip on a WizzAir flight to Warsaw see family for the weekend, but nipping over to Manila isn't an option.

The effect of that is that the workers brought into the country from farther afield in the Post Brexit 'Boris Wave' are more likely to bring dependants with them.

There's another possible Brexit impact. Take a look at the graph in this document showing the numbers of asylum seekers who have arrived into the UK:

https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...ylum-in-the-uk

It's striking how the numbers soared after the implementation of Brexit.

I'm open to other possibilities, but could Brexit and the consequential withdrawal from the Dublin Arrangements have emboldened people to come to the UK, knowing that the risk of being returned to other EU countries had been reduced?

The irony of course is that the people who sold Brexit as the solution to everything don't talk about that anymore. Instead they are now selling ending immigration and potentially removing people who are settled here as the solution to everything. And the same people are buying into it...

While the Poles were here,they did work hard and adapted to our way of life.But our economy did not improve because most of the money was sent back home to their families in Poland.The Dublin agreement once again was of no benefit to us because asylum seekers outnumbered deportations whilst we were in the EU.We did not benefit much at all being a member of the EU.We all know that after Germany, we paid the largest annual contribution and each year we showed a deficit in billions.That's why the majority voted to come out and free ourselves.The problem is,Brexit was handled badly and not fully completed because of Westminster and Whitehall remainers taking over.The globalists wanted to keep that cosy relationship that the people voted against.

[frogmiller]

Ok, so your claiming that 1 million asylum seekers have entered the UK in the last 2 years but really you are referring to legal migrants who have arrived to take up vacancies in the UK? So just to be clear, France by some way outnumbers the UK in terms of numbers of asylum seekers it processes, but it is correct to raise, whether you meant to or not, that France takes in far less legal migrants than the UK, or at least has done in recent years, and I can see why this concerns so many people.

But why has this happened?

1) International students make up roughly a third of these. Partly due to the UK gov agreeing that international students could live and work in the UK for 2 years following graduation as well as aggressive recruitment from UK universities who had their funding cut successively by the government through the austerity years. In short, without international students, many if not most universities would close. Some would think that a good thing, I think not

2) Post Brexit, the government lowered it's visa requirements to allow a greater number of health and social care workers to work in Britain. Our poor pay and conditions along with the often complex nature of care work meant we were left with thousands of vacancies to fill, hence the government granting these lower skills visa requirements. Similar in food processing and hospitality. All essential jobs that needed filling.

So huge drivers behind all of this is long term political decisions and it is interesting to note the difference between France and the UK. France on the whole offers better pay and protections to such lower skilled professions and therefore you could say that they successfully recruit into these sectors themselves. I can't say if they culturally value these jobs more, but hard to imagine them being valued less than in the UK. So you would be right: we are creating skills gaps due to what seems to be lowering of pay, conditions and status to some essential services and relying on immigrant labour to plug those gaps. I don't have a problem with that concern.

But what are the alternatives going forward? As I've already said we can invest masiively, and I mean massively, to train and skill up our domestic workforce. I think many of us if not most that this would be a desirable solution rather than importing the workforce. As long as there is a substantial workforce to train up and service all of of these and other jobs that need doing, but with the declining birthrate, it's not clear how long that can be sustained. I'm at the place of, 'Ok, I can buy into this idea - but the cost is going to be huge - how are we going to pay for it?'. I keep asking that on here but no one seems able to answer it?

Further, if part of the solution is to raise wages of both public and private sector jobs, have you, Farage or anyone done an impact assessment on that with those industries? What would the impact on an employer be if suddenly asked to add 20% to their workforce salaries? Would employers be able to afford that? What would you do if they refuse? If the NHS and public sector are going to have to add 20% onto their worksforce's salaries, how is that going to be paid for as well as all of the retraining and skilling up programmes w're all goingt o have to pay for.

I'd llove to hear answers about how all of these ambitions will be paid for. I would have expected that Farage, having led with a commitment to force some of my staff out of the country if he comes to power might have done some assessment on what the costs and impact on all of us this is going to have, but unless I missed it he hasn't said anything on this yet? Why do you think that might be?

I hear your observations on public services being stretched - but I just can't agree that this is all just due to immigration. It is due to chronic underfunding in the last 20 years. Most of the 'Boriswave' migrants arrive already trained and ready to do their jobs, are at an age where they aren't a drain on doctors and hospitals when set against the amount they are bringing in in taxes, spending etc. In short, we could indulge the fantasy and banish all of the post 2020 migrants and in my opinion there would be minimal difference to the vast machine of the NHS and public services - we would still be waiting for appointments and suffering poor public services - because we don't fund them enough. Not blaming anyone but us for this - we only vote for politicians that convince us that we can have great public services without us having to increase our tax contributions. We've made our own bed there, so don't see why we should blame migrants for it. All just my opinion of course.

And some personal stuff at the end:

You say "I think that you are blinkered by your good fortune. Your education, your job": Just for info, I failed badly at school and only got into HE through an adult access course. I was raised in a very working class pit village, both parents were alcoholics, I was homeless for 2 years as young adult, on the dole until i did the access course. My post school years living in piss smelling DHSS accomodation with drugs parties above me all night didn't kill me, but I'm not sure it was the shine of fortune upon me that you make out here.


"your outlook on Britain as a colonising nation that should somehow be punished". When have I ever said that? Why suddenly throwing that at me??

"Your willingness to give money for wars and to let the next generation pay for it." Again, WTF? When would I ever say that? I joined the protest against the Iraq war, pressured my MPs against repeating further idiotic policies in Afghanistan and doing likewise with current Labour MP over Labours role in providing arms to Israel to use in Gaza. Where TF did you get the idea that I'm a warlord??

"There are many like me that think that you are wrong" - can't disagree with this, especially on Millersmad. But we're all entitled to an opinion. We all have free speech arter all...

" and that your liberal ideals are inhibiting your need to see it from other peoples position." Please see stuff on my background. I come from a Brexit town and have friends who express the same opinions on here, including my closest pal. I understand why they are saying it, in some cases am quite frightened by why they are saying it, but I understand why. But the thing that frightens me more, and the thing that we have never really encountered in post war tech world, is the willingness to share and swallow so much information that is clearly not true, and - astonishingly - the willingness that many people have to continue to believe in a presented fact, even when it is demonstrated as untrue to them. This is a terrifying development.

If anyone is still awake after this, well done.

I appreciate your reply Raging.
During a thread on the ukrainien war and just after trump won his election I asked you about funding the war is where I got your willingness to give money for that war.

On threads going back you once said that you were not proud of Britain's history.

Your background is impressive and there are not enough people like you that are able to climb out of such a position. Britain as well as societies all over the world needs the likes of you to give back and from memory you seem to do this with ***ually confused kids.

You see we just go back and forth without really knowing who we are talking to. The less you know about people the more entitled people feel they have a right to judge.

I have met many members from this board and I must be honest I do treat them differently. I am quite happy to call Brin a tit because I have met him a few times and he knows I don’t mean to offend it is just something that I would say to his face anyway.

Reading about your life and struggles, the way you won through and the fact that you once said that you danced to ABBA like a kid really gives me a better perspective of you. One that I like and one that has given me more respect towards you.

I thank you for opening up.

Ps. I didn’t read the first few paragraphs!

[Back of the net]

Terrorist attack in Manchester Jews targeted. Hope everyone is ok.
The religion of peace strikes again. And we’re importing more of them. Diversity is our strength.

[ragingpup]

I appreciate your reply Raging.
During a thread on the ukrainien war and just after trump won his election I asked you about funding the war is where I got your willingness to give money for that war.

On threads going back you once said that you were not proud of Britain's history.

Your background is impressive and there are not enough people like you that are able to climb out of such a position. Britain as well as societies all over the world needs the likes of you to give back and from memory you seem to do this with ***ually confused kids.

You see we just go back and forth without really knowing who we are talking to. The less you know about people the more entitled people feel they have a right to judge.

I have met many members from this board and I must be honest I do treat them differently. I am quite happy to call Brin a tit because I have met him a few times and he knows I don’t mean to offend it is just something that I would say to his face anyway.

Reading about your life and struggles, the way you won through and the fact that you once said that you danced to ABBA like a kid really gives me a better perspective of you. One that I like and one that has given me more respect towards you.

I thank you for opening up.

Ps. I didn’t read the first few paragraphs!

Thanks for the very kind words frog, very much appreciated. It was a rough start but many have lots worse and I've had a good share of lucky breaks since.

Wow, that's some good trawling there! Yes, to qualify, and without wishing to open the debates again, I was/am behind intervention in Ukraine, but the pacifist in me warring with the realist hates the arms trade as an instinct and oppose most. Re British history, there are parts of our history, namely the colonial part, of which I am not proud but I'm sure a deeper trawl would find me also saying that we have every reason to be proud of many other parts, not least our involvement in the great wars to play a big role in defeating fascism.

Yep, would love to meet and chat with posters as sure we'd get on much better than it seems on politics posts. My racist best mate (he now is quite happy to call himself that after many years of denial, and I love his honesty) are worlds apart politically but we were born in the same street, 3 days apart and share similar childhoods that keep us connected. Never a day goes by when I don't get at least a handful of his social media harvested far right memes, but we have a bloody good laugh when we get together for a pint! I'm sure most of us would on here.

He won't dance to ABBA though. Miserable ****.

[frogmiller]

Thanks for the very kind words frog, very much appreciated. It was a rough start but many have lots worse and I've had a good share of lucky breaks since.

Wow, that's some good trawling there! Yes, to qualify, and without wishing to open the debates again, I was/am behind intervention in Ukraine, but the pacifist in me warring with the realist hates the arms trade as an instinct and oppose most. Re British history, there are parts of our history, namely the colonial part, of which I am not proud but I'm sure a deeper trawl would find me also saying that we have every reason to be proud of many other parts, not least our involvement in the great wars to play a big role in defeating fascism.

Yep, would love to meet and chat with posters as sure we'd get on much better than it seems on politics posts. My racist best mate (he now is quite happy to call himself that after many years of denial, and I love his honesty) are worlds apart politically but we were born in the same street, 3 days apart and share similar childhoods that keep us connected. Never a day goes by when I don't get at least a handful of his social media harvested far right memes, but we have a bloody good laugh when we get together for a pint! I'm sure most of us would on here.

He won't dance to ABBA though. Miserable ****.

No trawling, the things stuck in my head for some daft reason.

[ragingpup]

No trawling, the things stuck in my head for some daft reason.

THat's bloody impressive. I struggle to remember things said yesterday!

[frogmiller]

THat's bloody impressive. I struggle to remember things said yesterday!

To be honest I find it much more difficult to remember when I am tired because of the stroke I had. But like you I now don't let it determine the person that I am. I am still learning how to write in English and french again using a pen. It is a bit wierd because I can write using a keyboard in English but not every day with a pen.