Election Year or Fear!

[Andy_Faber]

That’s a fair response. Thankyou.

May be worth remembering that while Mandelson is being rightly castigated over his relationship with Epstein, the current POTUS is just as culpable. In 2002 - coincidentally at the height of Mandelson’s power - Trump said of Epstein, ‘I’ve known Jeff for 15 years. Terrific guy…he’s a lot of fun to be with, he likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side.’

Two years later they fell out, allegedly over a property purchase.

Again within all the noise you may have noticed my sticking up for female rights /equality (not that everyone shouldn’t but it’s a mad world) so my view on anyone embroiled in this by involvement or acceptance is hang em high. Many will unfairly escape by their wealth/status which is more RP’s hobby horse than mine

[Ram Pant]

Again within all the noise you may have noticed my sticking up for female rights /equality (not that everyone shouldn’t but it’s a mad world) so my view on anyone embroiled in this by involvement or acceptance is hang em high. Many will unfairly escape by their wealth/status which is more RP’s hobby horse than mine

Indeed, I'm one of those who believe that there is but one Law and it applies to everybody in full. Position and wealth shouldn't shield folk. Even more so when the crime is as horrendous as the seks trafficking involved in the Epstein circus.

A US Court ordered full and unredacted release by last December. Roughly half released and heavily redacted. Contempt od Court charges for all responsible. That's the Law, even in Trump's America. Although they do seem to be moving rapidly to Trump's Law aka his mood of the day. He has broken the Constitution, the Law, as have many of his fellow MAGA rulers. Only a handful of people seem to have the guts to stand up to him. Tech companies, Law firms, Universities, broadcasters have all bowed down to the bullying. The sooner he's gone or the midterms take away his power, the better. Better for the USA and better for the world.

[swaledale]

Indeed, I'm one of those who believe that there is but one Law and it applies to everybody in full. Position and wealth shouldn't shield folk. Even more so when the crime is as horrendous as the seks trafficking involved in the Epstein circus.

A US Court ordered full and unredacted release by last December. Roughly half released and heavily redacted. Contempt od Court charges for all responsible. That's the Law, even in Trump's America. Although they do seem to be moving rapidly to Trump's Law aka his mood of the day. He has broken the Constitution, the Law, as have many of his fellow MAGA rulers. Only a handful of people seem to have the guts to stand up to him. Tech companies, Law firms, Universities, broadcasters have all bowed down to the bullying. The sooner he's gone or the midterms take away his power, the better. Better for the USA and better for the world.

Absolutely and is a prime example of what "good germans" means. Its those people who don't raise objection, who in some cases actively enable or at the very least don't offer any resistance, the businesses that consider the bottom line rather than any moral stance, the politicians who sit back and allow illegal and immoral actions, the people that keep their heads down, think well Trump isn't after me, isn't affecting me, who ignore whats happening to the other guys, the officials that participate rather than objecting. An illicit regime can only prosper with its enablers.

Fortunately there are numerous examples in the US of people who are taking a stand, from officials who ahve resigned thie rposts rather than carry out the Trump regime's orders, the people of Minesota who have organised ICE watch and protested, the media that have not bowed down to Trumps bullying and pressure and indeed media figures like Jimmy Kimmel who have taken a robust stance even when their livelihood is at risk.

[Andy_Faber]

Absolutely and is a prime example of what "good germans" means. Its those people who don't raise objection, who in some cases actively enable or at the very least don't offer any resistance .

That?s an interesting broadening of that phrase to be a personal perception, which I can now understand. So my use of ?good Germans? would include, but not be confined to, those who condone antisemites currently flying the Palestinian flag as much as you in the past have suggested about white English misappropriating the St George flag.

[swaledale]

That?s an interesting broadening of that phrase to be a personal perception, which I can now understand. So my use of ?good Germans? would include, but not be confined to, those who condone antisemites currently flying the Palestinian flag as much as you in the past have suggested about white English misappropriating the St George flag.

Its not a broadening of the phrase actually, that is what the "Good Germans" did, they passively accepted what Hitler did and indeed many voted for him, they ignored the distasteful acts, the rhetoric about "others" being to blame, the openly racist policies or the violence and murder, as long it didn't affect them..at least not initially. Think of the businesses that happily went along with him as it was good for their balance sheet, the same principle applies.

As to your point about condoning those whom you label antisemites, flying the Palestinian flag. Mm firstly I'd not disagree that there are those involved who do have antisemetic views, but and there is a good deal of smoke and mirrors here, not least promogaulated by a section, but by no means all of the Jewish community, which attempts to smear all those involved in arguing for the rights of the Palestinians and crticising the destruction of Gaza, the illegal settlement of the West bank and not least the killing of circa 70,000 Palestinians, many of them women and children (a figure now reportedly accepted by Israel) as antisemites.

Now one can criticise Israel and not least the current PM Netanyahu, who lets not forget is on trial for corruption for their actions and philosophy, without being antisemetic, unless of course one feels its perfectly appropriate and reasonable to massacre 70,000 in retaliation for 1,700 civilains being killed.

Given that the "good germans" didn't actually wave any flags or protest ether in support of or against the Hitler regime, but passively accepted what was going on and in many cases enabled it to operate, I don't see that your conclusion holds water. In any case even if your assertion that those flying the Palestinian flag were all antisemites was true, which it obviously isn't, condoning or not objecting to such actions isn't the same as not objecting to an authoriatrian regime which is in control and dismantling the democratic institutions of the country one lives in.

As to my reference about those misappropriating the English flag, for their own purposes, I have said I have no problem with them flying the flag, other than it seems to me that their effort and resources might be better spent assisting those within their communities rather than boosting the coffers of the Chinese flag manufacturers and Amazon and undertaking what is basically a performative action with no benefit to anyone.

The "Good Germans" in this case are the people who whilst not openly supporting Reform or other far right parties, either vote for them, on the basis that they at least represent something different or as you said, "why not give someone new a chance" (Though given Reform has recruited many of the worst and least competent ex Tory Mp's into its ranks, that seems rather hollow) or enable them to gain power and influence without serious thought as to the divisive rhetoric that spews from them.

[ramAnag]

Again within all the noise you may have noticed my sticking up for female rights /equality (not that everyone shouldn?’t but it?’s a mad world) so my view on anyone embroiled in this by involvement or acceptance is hang em high. Many will unfairly escape by their wealth/status which is more RP?’s hobby horse than mine

Tbh I hadn’t noticed you ‘sticking up for female rights/equality’ any more than the majority on here and I don’t think the ‘wealth/status’ escape route is any more RP’s hobby horse than it is also an issue for the majority who still contribute regular posts on here.

I’m certain you’re right in your description of your own attitudes, but then all you’re really describing is human decency.
We should all be in favour of female rights/equality and we should all stand against those with wealth and relative power - from crooked coppers, head teachers and local politicians to ambassadors and presidents - using their positions to exploit the vulnerable as I’m sure the six (?) remaining regular posters on here would all agree.