OT Trump prematurely ejaculates

[MadAmster]

Surely it's the combination of people with guns/knives that kill?

Here in the Netherlands, knife carrying among minors from 10 to 18 has skyrocketed in the past 2 or 3 years. Even in the more affluent areas, kids are carrying for protection because they know that a lot of other kids carry them and are likely to use them.

In the past week, one 13 year old and 2 fourte-en year olds have been arrested for using a knife. Two for the Dutch equivalant of GBH and attempted murder and one for murder.

The huge escalation has led to a new Law including stop and search rights for police. Shops are no longer allowed to sell knives to U18s. Anybody buying any kind of knife has to prove they are 18+. U18s may not carry a knife in public. Locker searches in schools are also now permitted.

The hope is that it will drastically reduce the number of kids carrying a knife.

I hope it works as there are way too many stabbing incidents. The major problem is kids don't see the danger. That despite ex perpetrators doing the rounds at schools. 5 years ago, 2 15 year olds who live in a small town about 10Km from me wanted some "extra money". They had heard from other kids how easy it was to wait until dark and then wait for someone to use the ATM. Threaten them with a knife and they'll give you the money and also get up to their limit out of the machine..... they picked on the wrong 60 odd year old man. He fought back and they killed him. They came fromgood families and had been taken in by the stories of "how easy" it was. It never occurred to them that a victim might not share their ideas and that it could end up with someone getting killed. They were mortified at how it ended. Their lives ruined. The victim's life ended. Their families' lives badly impacted....... the pair of them now tour schools advising against knife carrying.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Hope you weren't that victim MA

[MadAmster]

Hope you weren't that victim MA

Thanks for the thoughts GP. Maybe the fact that I wrote that they killed him provides the answer to your question

[Geoff Parkstone]

So...just out of interest, are you, Ram and GP coming out in support of the gun lobby, the 2nd Amendment and the right to carry firearms?

I tend to agree with Andy, it would be politically suicidal to repeal the right to bear arms and I'm not sure it would achieve anything. There are so many legally held guns in the states that driving guns underground wouldn't achieve anything in reducing numbers in circulation but would allow for profiteering for generations to come in the newly opened illicit trade.

Would control and licensing achieve anything? Probably a little and some element of evaluation of an individual's need for a gun and disqualification for misuse would be appropriate. But you would then create a split legal/illegal market.

It's a mad system where you can walk into a sweetshop and be offered a handgun to go with your Christmas candy, as I was in Charlotte's ville, Virginia one year.

So I'm afraid that it's another one of those issues that should be looked at and regulated better but even if one could overturn 2nd amendment it wouldn't achieve a lot. I suspect if any president tried, he'd end up shot. If not, then he would match Trump in being a one term president.

As to the observation that, pro rata, most victims are black on black crime, that may well be so but, if I can coin a phrase which might catch on, "black lives matter". Stop shooting each other -

[AdiSalisbury]

How would people feel if they were told that they were no longer allowed to drink alcohol?

I'm a (normally) responsible drinker, I never drink drive, yet others do and people lose their lives as a result. So should I, we, lose our right to a beer, glass of wine, owing to the negligence and stupidity of others? Having a beer is very much a part of our culture, and many businesses profit from it.

That's the type of thing you're up against with the gun laws, it's not as simple as just turning it off, it's a large part of their culture and economy. I don't think that anyone other than police officers, military personnel, and farmers, should have the right to a firearm... but it's not up to me, and simply telling people that they must give them up is not going to win their support.

[MadAmster]

Quite happy not to have one. In Holland there are strict Laws and strict checks. Not only checks when you want to buy one but also checks that you are keeping it i accordance with the Law. Apart from military, police and farmers, there are also licenced "pest controllers" who also may own a weapon.

If you belong to a gun club (target shooting in a sporting way, the types of shooting seen at the Olympics and other multi sport events) you can also get alicence to buy and keep a gun. Again, there are strict Laws as to how and where you keep it (locked away, separate from the ammo etc). Break the regs once and that's it. No more gun, ever.

With regard to the USA, I'd say that, other than the military, nobody needs an AR15 or similar weapon.

[Geoff Parkstone]

Isn't it refreshing to be told by an enlightened Liberal that we should not have open minds but must form fixed opinions rather than see both sides of an argument. I'm thinking this is precisely the situation that Andy was searching for a word for yesterday.

The world is full or grey rA, not everything is black and white.

To answer you final point, no I wouldn't want that change made here, but I'm struggling on the relevance of that to the entirely different position in the USA. You are, culturally and socio economically comparing chalk to cheese.

[ramAnag]

Isn't it refreshing to be told by an enlightened Liberal that we should not have open minds but must form fixed opinions rather than see both sides of an argument. I'm thinking this is precisely the situation that Andy was searching for a word for yesterday.

The world is full or grey rA, not everything is black and white.

To answer you final point, no I wouldn't want that change made here, but I'm struggling on the relevance of that to the entirely different position in the USA. You are, culturally and socio economically comparing chalk to cheese.

I’m not ‘telling anyone’ anything GP...I was asked for my opinion.
I have no difficulty with and totally respect the argument put forward by Ram, as a gun club member, and MA too.

But yes, we do surely have to reach a decision and, as I’ve said, imo there can be no justification for members of the public owning automatic and semi automatic weapons. Personally I’d go further but I recognise I may not be right about that.

The world may well not be ‘black and white’ and instead be ‘full of grey’, GP but somethings just transcend that ‘greyness’...pea-dophilia, driving at excessive speed through built up areas, drinking and driving, rape, domestic abuse, child abuse. We’d all, I presume agree that such actions are universally wrong (although you’d probably throw in a red herring about emergency service drivers for #2)...and to that I’d add parading through US cities carrying weapons that would have looked more at home on the battlefield.

I don’t understand your suggestion that comparing the UK and the US is like ‘culturally and sociology economically comparing chalk and cheese’...it isn’t imo, but the fact that ultimately you don’t want to replicate the US situation over here speaks volumes. It’s also interesting that this is the first time you’ve made clear your family’s vested interest in guns but please don’t try and compare your, I again presume, responsible family members with some of those we saw brandishing automatic weapons in the States.

Adi...we’ve got used to not going out, being unable to leave the country, not being allowed to go to gigs and the theatre and having to wear masks in recent months. Why? Because it’s in the interests of the common good. You say, with complete common sense imo, that personally gun ownership should be restricted to the police, the military and farmers but gun owners wouldn’t like it. If that upsets those who want to have a gun in the house...tough...I like driving quickly and would love to drive on Mways at 120mph, but I don’t because I recognise we need rules for the common good.

[Ram59]

The world may well not be ‘black and white’ and instead be ‘full of grey’, GP but somethings just transcend that ‘greyness’...pea-dophilia, driving at excessive speed through built up areas, drinking and driving, rape, domestic abuse, child abuse. We’d all, I presume agree that such actions are universally wrong (although you’d probably throw in a red herring about emergency service drivers for #2)...and to that I’d add parading through US cities carrying weapons that would have looked more at home on the battlefield.



These things that transcend 'greyness' RA. A 16 year old lad sleeping with his 15 years 11 months 25 day old girlfriend is committing an offence for which he could be put on the *** offenders register alongside the dirty old men who prey on young girls. Likewise, the unsuspecting motorist driving at 25 mph down a road which has been 30 mph limit for the last 50 years, compared with a boy racer hurtling down the street in his souped up Civic. Or someone who had a few drinks last night, still being a few milligrams over the limit the following morning, compared with his mate the night before, who could barely stand before driving home from the pub. Two work colleagues get totally drunk on a business trip and end up sleeping with each other. Both are horrified that they've cheated on their partner, but the man is guilty of rape, just like a serial rapist who picks on women walking home alone.

There is greyness almost every where you look, RA

[ramAnag]

The world may well not be ‘black and white’ and instead be ‘full of grey’, GP but somethings just transcend that ‘greyness’...pea-dophilia, driving at excessive speed through built up areas, drinking and driving, rape, domestic abuse, child abuse. We’d all, I presume agree that such actions are universally wrong (although you’d probably throw in a red herring about emergency service drivers for #2)...and to that I’d add parading through US cities carrying weapons that would have looked more at home on the battlefield.



These things that transcend 'greyness' RA. A 16 year old lad sleeping with his 15 years 11 months 25 day old girlfriend is committing an offence for which he could be put on the *** offenders register alongside the dirty old men who prey on young girls. Likewise, the unsuspecting motorist driving at 25 mph down a road which has been 30 mph limit for the last 50 years, compared with a boy racer hurtling down the street in his souped up Civic. Or someone who had a few drinks last night, still being a few milligrams over the limit the following morning, compared with his mate the night before, who could barely stand before driving home from the pub. Two work colleagues get totally drunk on a business trip and end up sleeping with each other. Both are horrified that they've cheated on their partner, but the man is guilty of rape, just like a serial rapist who picks on women walking home alone.

There is greyness almost every where you look, RA

I understand your points Ram, except that 1) That is neither pea-dophelia or child abuse. 2) I was talking about extreme and irresponsible high speed driving. 3) My reference was to blatant drinking and driving. 4) The scenario you describe doesn’t involve ‘rape’.

Acknowledge your point about ‘greyness’ however I suspect you know full well you are playing ‘devil’s advocate’ and taking us up a blind alley.
My point remains that we have certain taboos within society and that the public ownership of weapons more suited to use in wartime should be amongst them. It is in the UK...think it should be in the USA too.