O/T:- Mr George Floyd RIP

[Old_pie]

I'd say you just have to judge it on each individual case, the community that it's in and also on our own moral compass. For example we both know that really having up a statue of someone who made alot of money slave trading isn't a great example of showing that we're a fair and welcoming society. You can't ask people to contribute to the economy and the country whilst celebrating those involved in their subjugation.

I just think people are getting worked up over nothing, for example it's no harm to you personally that the statue in Bristol is taken down but it being up might have personally hurt black people who walk past it every morning on they way to work. Get it down then, it's nothing to do with Britishness, it's common sense and morally right.

Well it seems a whole load of statues in London are earmarked for removal. And Lewis Hamilton, the richest sportsman in British history has waded in so I must be wrong eh?

Sounds like sanitisation to me.

And it affects me because I'm not being listened to and am getting to the point I daren't speak.

[magpie_mania]

Exactly right, the world is changing but it's a slow process. Just over a century ago the Suffragettes were regarded as terrorists of their time because they demanded the vote for women. That seems ludicrous now (well, maybe not to one or two on here!), and I think in a couple of centuries racism will be seen the same way. As more and more people realise that skin colour isn't important, there will be more mixed relationships leading to all sorts of skin colours.

Racism is definitely doomed, but it will take a long time. That will just leave religious extremists to sort!

Genuine question.

How would you define 'extremist'?

I fully understand the racism issue but those persecuted / imprisoned for their faith never get a mention.

It is estimated there are 50-70,000 Christians in prison (terrible conditions) in North Korea. Who will stand up for them?

[Elite_Pie]

Genuine question.

How would you define 'extremist'?

I suppose I would describe a religious extremist as someone who is prepared to take action to inflict their religious beliefs on others. I have no problem with anyone who wants to worship a god as long as they keep it a peaceful and personal thing.

[magpie_mania]

I suppose I would describe a religious extremist as someone who is prepared to take action to inflict their religious beliefs on others. I have no problem with anyone who wants to worship a god as long as they keep it a peaceful and personal thing.

I think I would nearly agree although I would clarify by adding 'harmful' before 'action'.

'Inflicting religious belief' is also quite wide - 'Go into all the world and preach the Gospel' is what Jesus said - that's why I added 'harmful'.

Interestingly, with all the media coverage of the slave trade issue, perhaps statues should be replaced with those of people who fought for the abolition of the slave trade, like William Wilberforce who for 18 years regularly introduced anti-slavery motions in parliament.
His Christian faith prompted him to become interested in social reform, particularly the improvement of factory conditions in Britain.

So 'inflicting religious belief' isn't always a bad thing!

[maddogslater]

Drive your Porsches over a cliff , made gearboxes for tiger tanks. krupps...chuck your coffee machine, made ovens for cremation in death camps. Ram your BMW (the little fockers) into the wall, made engines for Focke-Wulf fighter.

[Old_pie]

I've just watched the interview with The Chaser, Barrister, Shaun Wallace. FFS, he's been stopped twice because he fits a profile of some wanted person. As soon as he made it clear who he was the issue was over. So what's to happen, "suspect not questioned for fear of race allegation?".

I tell you what, ever since the electronic auto passport machines were brought in I fail. The first couple of times I thought it was random checking. The next couple of times I thought maybe my passport was not as clear as it should have been because it had been through the wash with my shorts. Then I got a new passport and lo and behold the machines still wouldn't let me go so I did the queue for manual checking. This time I asked, and you know what, I apparently fit the profile of some wanted person. Bloody racists - I'll tell 'em what for next time I don't get through. How dare they?

Talk about playing the bloody victim card.

[DaveSmithRules]

Oldpie - Before you start saying anything you will really regret please stop. This is a fairly well reasoned thread so far. And it looks like you're now threatening to come out with some 1970s personal racist stuff, rather than the 2020 institutionally racist stuff you've been peddling thus far.

Also, I'm really sorry to hear a machine was mean to you in an airport once.

[Old_pie]

Oldpie - Before you start saying anything you will really regret please stop. This is a fairly well reasoned thread so far. And it looks like you're now threatening to come out with some 1970s personal racist stuff, rather than the 2020 institutionally racist stuff you've been peddling thus far.

Also, I'm really sorry to hear a machine was mean to you in an airport once.

I was stopped, several times not just once, because I was profiled.

If you knew my life you would know that I'm fairly "colour blind". To be clear I agree there is no excuse for anyone who is supposed to uphold the law to use excessive force regardless. I was astounded that the officer and the others nearby weren't immediately arrested.

But I will still stop commenting because clearly I'm no longer entitled to a view and if you really believe I am institutionally racist then you've got a problem.

[DaveSmithRules]

I was stopped, several times not just once, because I was profiled.

If you knew my life you would know that I'm fairly "colour blind". To be clear I agree there is no excuse for anyone who is supposed to uphold the law to use excessive force regardless. I was astounded that the officer and the others nearby weren't immediately arrested.

But I will still stop commenting because clearly I'm no longer entitled to a view and if you really believe I am institutionally racist then you've got a problem.

Oldpie - I don't think you're "no longer entitled to a view." But I do think a lot of white people in the UK need to realise that their experiences and views of racism are intrinsically different to those of black people. And frankly it's less important they are heard right now as white people have never suffered en mass from racism in this country. Do you really feel you need an equal view on every subject - including the ones that affect you less? Or are you one of the people in denial of modern-day racism because you feel a bit attacked by it as a older white man in changing times?

Honestly, unless you really think continuing on this thread is going to make you say something to 'put Swale in a difficult position' i'd encourage you to continue. I'm enjoying the debate I just don't want to see anyone get banned because of this thread.

I do get that you've suffered from other things (like getting profiled in an airport). But you need to understand that these are things that happen to all people. And by going on about them you're basically continually denying that racism exists by saying bad things happen to all people. That's fine, but it's a separate argument. There's general misfortune and there's institutional racism - these are two separate things. Black people experience both of those things, but you just have to deal with one of them. Do you understand?

[Riverleeno]

Oldpie - I don't think you're "no longer entitled to a view." But I do think a lot of white people in the UK need to realise that their experiences and views of racism are intrinsically different to those of black people. And frankly it's less important they are heard right now as white people have never suffered en mass from racism in this country. Do you really feel you need an equal view on every subject - including the ones that affect you less? Or are you one of the people in denial of modern-day racism because you feel a bit attacked by it as a older white man in changing times?

Honestly, unless you really think continuing on this thread is going to make you say something to 'put Swale in a difficult position' i'd encourage you to continue. I'm enjoying the debate I just don't want to see anyone get banned because of this thread.

I do get that you've suffered from other things (like getting profiled in an airport). But you need to understand that these are things that happen to all people. And by going on about them you're basically continually denying that racism exists by saying bad things happen to all people. That's fine, but it's a separate argument. There's general misfortune and there's institutional racism - these are two separate things. Black people experience both of those things, but you just have to deal with one of them. Do you understand?

There is no 'debate' if someone has to agree with what you say.