McClean whinging again.

[DerekProsser(East Anglia)]

This thread has been thoroughly entertaining, I normally keep away from political arguments but as this one was created about a current footballer (who played in a team against the Millers only a couple of weeks ago) I ventured in. 13 pages later I'm gripped, some very intelligent and passionately argued thoughts and opinions on both sides.

As for James McClean, the kid is never going to win. He's made his views clear many times. He was born and raised on an estate in Derry that was home to some of the people who were killed on Bloody Sunday. An area that is as hardcore Republican as you can imagine due to the troubles. It's a lazy comparison I know but to expect McClean to publicly wear an emblem that honours the British soldiers who served in Derry would be like expecting a dyed in the wool NUM man to wear a pin badge of Maggie Thatcher.

He's gone on record many times saying he would proudly wear a Poppy if it only honoured the fallen of World War 1 and 2, but thats not the case and as such he feels he cannot participate. He's made it clear he is not anti British, pro war or anything like that. He respects what the Poppy means to other people and has never shown disrespect to anyone who chooses to wear one. As far as I'm aware he always respects the minutes of silence (it's not like he gets his smart speaker out and loudly plays Fields of Athenry while everyone else stands in sombre reticence).

But no matter what he says his actions will be viewed by many as disrespecting the Poppy in a country where it is so revered. As such, he becomes a target for abuse. Without wanting to sound like a sanctimonious arsehole I would hazard a guess that the football fans who chant sectarian abuse at McClean know very little, and care even less, about the troubles in Ireland. I would also guess that most don't have any genuine hostility towards Irish people. If so the Sunderland fans chanting at McClean last week would also shout the same abuse at Niall Quinn surely? But because McClean uses his national identity as the reason why he can't wear a Poppy, it's the easiest, laziest and most pathetic way to try and get under his skin.

Could McClean help himself more? Well I suppose so, but I would imagine if he conformed to make his life easier in England then that would no doubt mean he could never return to his home town once he retires.

Also, if I am being really cynical, you could argue that the harsh truth is that James McClean is a bang average footballer who would be forgotten about the minute he hangs up his boots if he didn't have this controversy following him. No doubt now there'll be a book, a lucrative career on the after dinner speech circuit, punditry every time Ireland kick a ball competitively. Maybe even some academic speeches in Universities

[John2]

"Critical Race Theory" is quite obviously a "racist" dogma anyway and its intention seems to be to stir up racial hatred. Do you think it should used to indoctrinate children in schools (secretly or against the wishes of parents)? Do you think that teachers who object to it should be sacked? Do you think people should be in fear of the consequences of criticizing it? And what about traditional conservative teachers and university academics - should they be eliminated from the education system?

The problem we have here is that we fundamentally disagree on your opening premise, so all your follow-up questions are irrelevant. I've not encountered an argument to convince me that critical race theory is racist. How have you come to your conclusion? A few right-wing propaganda videos the YouTube algorithm or Daily Mail columnists fed I suspect.

Christianity has been used for a lot of bad things - that is the nature of religion

Wait.. exactly, we agree. So let's leave it in the dustbin of history where it belongs.

Do you have examples of Christ promoting homophobia and misogyny?

I mean it's literally there at the beginning, Eve was created from a man's rib. Many brands of Christianity don't even allow women to be vicars or priests.

LEVITICUS 18:22 “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.”

is the likely cause of many centuries of oppression of homo***uals, and some lingering homophobia remains as our society's legacy of its past Christian culture.

[John2]

CAM called it, 'not something he should be using 'willy nilly'. That's hardly abusing my power now is it?

I lobbed, you bit, you're in the net. . Of course I'll be a good chap and not abuse this site

CAM made that comment in the context of having directly pointed out that you had abused your new moderator powers.

I find it funny when people try to argue they're fishing. I'm always happy to bite, so well done!

The problem is, on this occasion I don't think you were joking, and I think you're hiding behind that as you're a bit embarrassed again as you realise you were subtly hinting at abusing your moderator status in an attempt to shape the discussion more to your liking.

I only say that, because as I have shown, you do have previous with abusing your powers.

[John2]

hmmmm ....

looked this up:

sanctimonious ****


Someone (usually John2) who sees themselves in a position of superiority and once they have made up their mind don't listen to any rational argument, but always have a personally objectifying explanation at the ready for why one is disagreeing or complaining.

A virtue signalling and pretentious individual who thinks they are above everyone else.

A person (or conglomerate of two persons who are virtually indistinguishable as individuals) who is so far up his or her own (or their own collective) arsehole their own mother wants to run them down. (I bet she does as well)





Give it a rest FFS. Brin doesn't need anyone to defend him but, unlike you, he does regularly contribute and helps keep this message board active. He's not perfect but he is popular on here.


So be a good lad and f@ck off. The vast majority do not care what you have to say.

So much so, rather than Brin stepping down as a mod because YOU think he should, why don't you stop posting here again because the vast MAJORITY on here, would like that better?

We could put it to the vote. The mods could agree to follow the result.

1. Brin steps down as a mod and keeps posting or
2. John2 has his account permanently deleted.


Grow up.

lol, I appreciate the effort you've gone to write this, it has made me smile.

I don't use MillersMad as a popularity contest, you must all have realised I've never made being popular something I've prioritised on here. I have had some fascinating conversations and insights though and I am grateful for the interactions I get to have.

Your reaction here is a bit dramatic though don't you think? You're literally calling for people expressing minority opinions to be banned. Ironic given the free speech context of the discussion. A rather fascist tone. Maybe fascism is in the majority here?

I do worry that some people get way too emotionally invested. It's just a forum. It's never worth getting worked up about the text that someone else has written. We do all support the same team and have more in common than divides us.

Believe it or not, I'm actually a lot more likeable and less sanctimonious in "real life".

[vaterland_miller]

The problem we have here is that we fundamentally disagree on your opening premise, so all your follow-up questions are irrelevant. I've not encountered an argument to convince me that critical race theory is racist. How have you come to your conclusion? A few right-wing propaganda videos the YouTube algorithm or Daily Mail columnists fed I suspect.

There's plenty of coverage of CRT. Your Woke crowd always criticize any argument by sneering at publications or sources of material that opens them up to scrutiny. If you think that preaching that white children in some urban hell hole are "privileged" because of the colour of their skin is something that will make the world better, then you have a serious problem and no amount of sanctimonious talk about how you hold the correct views on all your pet subjects can cover that. But it just goes to prove what I have always asserted, that the word "racist" is meaningless because it can be applied accurately to everyone.

Wait.. exactly, we agree. So let's leave it in the dustbin of history where it belongs.

Well lets discard books in that dustbin too whilst we are at it because they can be used mischievously too - oops sorry, thats what Marxists do isn't it. Discard and destroy is what Woke is all about.

I mean it's literally there at the beginning, Eve was created from a man's rib. Many brands of Christianity don't even allow women to be vicars or priests.

LEVITICUS 18:22 “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.”

is the likely cause of many centuries of oppression of homo***uals, and some lingering homophobia remains as our society's legacy of its past Christian culture.

You didn't learn much at your school in spite of all the religion you claimed was thrown at you (together with your Google skill). Christianity is the subject of the New Testament.

The computer you are typing upon is the product of 2000 years of Judeo-Christian culture.

[howdydoo]

lol, I appreciate the effort you've gone to write this, it has made me smile.

I don't use MillersMad as a popularity contest, you must all have realised I've never made being popular something I've prioritised on here. I have had some fascinating conversations and insights though and I am grateful for the interactions I get to have.

Your reaction here is a bit dramatic though don't you think? You're literally calling for people expressing minority opinions to be banned. Ironic given the free speech context of the discussion. A rather fascist tone. Maybe fascism is in the majority here?

I do worry that some people get way too emotionally invested. It's just a forum. It's never worth getting worked up about the text that someone else has written. We do all support the same team and have more in common than divides us.

Believe it or not, I'm actually a lot more likeable and less sanctimonious in "real life".

Stop trawling through old posts simply to trip up a retired bloke in a cardy then and be a bit nicer to Vaterland? Go and bait the really super rich and powerful people in the world who are brainwashing EVERYONE and don't be shocked if all this is simulation in the end.

A 50/50 possibility, so I am led to believe. Work that out?

Enjoy the hedonism. Just make sure it isn't with yourself.

[John2]

The computer you are typing upon is the product of 2000 years of Judeo-Christian culture.

LOL. You actually believe this don't you?

You must have conveniently forgotten about the dark ages. There is a clear correlation between secularism and the advancement of technology.

On CRT, I went to Clifton Comp in the 90s, one of the worst performing in the town.

I know full well how tough working-class white kids from Rotherham have it.

Do you think a working-class person with otherwise identical qualifications, experiences, and personality as me, but of Pakistani ancestry, has otherwise identical prospects at a job interview?

Let me put that question a different way...

If the people of millers mad were collectively interviewing for a job, and they have identical working-class candidates in all areas except ethnicity... who do you think they would hire?

We know the answer. Acknowledging and being aware of these things isn't racist. Not that that's necessarily what CRT is.

My point is, just because white working-class people also have it tough, it doesn't mean we can't also consider the implications of race in our society.

[John2]

Stop trawling through old posts simply to trip up a retired bloke in a cardy then and be a bit nicer to Vaterland? Go and bait the really super rich and powerful people in the world who are brainwashing EVERYONE and don't be shocked if all this is simulation in the end.

A 50/50 possibility, so I am led to believe. Work that out?

Enjoy the hedonism. Just make sure it isn't with yourself.

An interesting point. In the last few years, I have actually come to believe it is overwhelmingly probable that we live in a simulation.

Why so worried about Vaterland, he's a big boy. I'm the one getting all the aggression on here, yet all I'm doing is giving a robust critique.

[vaterland_miller]

This thread has been thoroughly entertaining, I normally keep away from political arguments but as this one was created about a current footballer (who played in a team against the Millers only a couple of weeks ago) I ventured in. 13 pages later I'm gripped, some very intelligent and passionately argued thoughts and opinions on both sides.

As for James McClean, the kid is never going to win. He's made his views clear many times. He was born and raised on an estate in Derry that was home to some of the people who were killed on Bloody Sunday. An area that is as hardcore Republican as you can imagine due to the troubles. It's a lazy comparison I know but to expect McClean to publicly wear an emblem that honours the British soldiers who served in Derry would be like expecting a dyed in the wool NUM man to wear a pin badge of Maggie Thatcher.

He's gone on record many times saying he would proudly wear a Poppy if it only honoured the fallen of World War 1 and 2, but thats not the case and as such he feels he cannot participate. He's made it clear he is not anti British, pro war or anything like that. He respects what the Poppy means to other people and has never shown disrespect to anyone who chooses to wear one. As far as I'm aware he always respects the minutes of silence (it's not like he gets his smart speaker out and loudly plays Fields of Athenry while everyone else stands in sombre reticence).

But no matter what he says his actions will be viewed by many as disrespecting the Poppy in a country where it is so revered. As such, he becomes a target for abuse. Without wanting to sound like a sanctimonious arsehole I would hazard a guess that the football fans who chant sectarian abuse at McClean know very little, and care even less, about the troubles in Ireland. I would also guess that most don't have any genuine hostility towards Irish people. If so the Sunderland fans chanting at McClean last week would also shout the same abuse at Niall Quinn surely? But because McClean uses his national identity as the reason why he can't wear a Poppy, it's the easiest, laziest and most pathetic way to try and get under his skin.

Could McClean help himself more? Well I suppose so, but I would imagine if he conformed to make his life easier in England then that would no doubt mean he could never return to his home town once he retires.

Also, if I am being really cynical, you could argue that the harsh truth is that James McClean is a bang average footballer who would be forgotten about the minute he hangs up his boots if he didn't have this controversy following him. No doubt now there'll be a book, a lucrative career on the after dinner speech circuit, punditry every time Ireland kick a ball competitively. Maybe even some academic speeches in Universities

Thanks for that Derek. You have explained that with great sensitivity. I have sympathy for him.

I go to Remembrance services every year and I stopped wearing poppies during Blair's big war. No one has ever commented that I am in a tiny minority. I assume that is because the people who go to such events are very tolerant and considerate people who understand what war means.

[howdydoo]

If the people of millers mad were collectively interviewing for a job, and they have identical working-class candidates in all areas except ethnicity... who do you think they would hire?

Collectively you might well be right.

If the collective were individuals who have actual experience of running a business you might well be very wrong. Times have moved on. In certain working environments it's still difficult. Works both ways. Put the boot on the other foot.

Does this candidate really need to have your personality? it's going to be tough for them.