O/T Trussed in Leader gone

[CTMilller]

Makes me smile when folks say we live in a democracy

For some it's one day every 4 years or so but when they don't get the result they like they turn into Violet Elizabeth Bott until the next election

Only on a football message board full of largely men of pensionable age would you get an understanding of that reference to Violet Elizabeth Bott - love it!

[ragingpup]

Very interesting RP, and it's hard to argue against anything in that video. It's a strong case against Brexit.

However, what both sides of the argument conveniently ignore is why a majority of the British public who bothered to vote, voted for Brexit in the first place. It was essentially the disenfranchised, the disillusioned (with politics) and the "ordinary Joe" who'd had enough of their living standards being eroded by successive governments. Rightly or wrongly, the EU was seen as a bastion of the establishment that had made their lives much harder, so they kicked against it...very hard! That vote pushed it over the line.

Until the reasons why many people feel this way is recognised and openly and properly discussed there's absolutely no point in banging on about how much worse off we are now because of Brexit. It will fall on deaf ears.

There's no doubt peoples living standards are being eroded over time - in fact it's gathering pace. Brexit is having an effect, but it's not the root cause, and it wasn't the root cause prior to 2016. Sorry to keep saying it but neoliberal economics over the last 30-40 years is to blame.

Tax the rich. End of story.

I hear you shank and pretty much agree with your analysis of the reasons behind where we are and the ultimate conclusion that the only significant wealth that is available that can possibly make a difference to public services is to redirect from those who have gained the most in the last three decades or so.

The problem is how do you frame a convincing argument to do that that will win a popular vote? The wealth is very well protected by the media owners who help shore up the status quo and sway popular opinion against acting even in its own interests but also, I think that economies are also more complex than we think and that there is actual truth in the fact that the wealth you are trying to redistribute can be very easily moved around the world and any such arguments for what you suggest have to first of all convince the masses that they are not going to crash the economy further by targeting wealth and actually literally find ways of adapting the tax system so that the wealth that has been built up can't be easily moved away from the UK in the first place.

Wish it was as easy as "tax the rich".

[Redshank]

I hear you shank and pretty much agree with your analysis of the reasons behind where we are and the ultimate conclusion that the only significant wealth that is available that can possibly make a difference to public services is to redirect from those who have gained the most in the last three decades or so.

The problem is how do you frame a convincing argument to do that that will win a popular vote? The wealth is very well protected by the media owners who help shore up the status quo and sway popular opinion against acting even in its own interests but also, I think that economies are also more complex than we think and that there is actual truth in the fact that the wealth you are trying to redistribute can be very easily moved around the world and any such arguments for what you suggest have to first of all convince the masses that they are not going to crash the economy further by targeting wealth and actually literally find ways of adapting the tax system so that the wealth that has been built up can't be easily moved away from the UK in the first place.

Wish it was as easy as "tax the rich".

I didn't say it was easy but until it's on the agenda in some way, shape or form nothing will change. There has to be some way found to stop/reverse the drain of wealth to the top few percent.

I noticed that a couple of Labour MPs have raised this in TV discussions recently, most notably Clive Lewis. I'm skeptical about whether this indicates a change in tack for the Labour Party but we'll see. With the likes of Lewis making those comments it will be interesting to see how their career develops (or not!) over the coming months as this may be an indicator over Labour's likely stance. Starmer is certainly clamping down hard on anyone perceived as left-wing right now.

[ragingpup]

Makes me smile when folks say we live in a democracy

For some it's one day every 4 years or so but when they don't get the result they like they turn into Violet Elizabeth Bott until the next election

We absolutely do live in a democracy. And it's right that the vote was honoured.

But since when did actually pointing out the economic outcome of a vote make it any slight on a democracy? Its simply pointing out the evidence of what had happened as a result of the vote to our economy. That's all.

If in the future, a political party argues to rejoin the EU or single market, and gains enough votes to enact on that mandate, that is also democracy in action.

Nothing wrong with democracy. Just your perceptions of it!

[Pattylallacks2]

Let's agree on one thing. It is what it is. We are out of Europe and in our lifetimes there is probably no going back.
But anyone who thinks that we are now or are likely to be any time soon, better off in any way for Brexit they have the intellectual capacity of a snail's arsehole.

[John2]

Let's agree on one thing. It is what it is. We are out of Europe and in our lifetimes there is probably no going back.

I think it'll be 10-15 years before we're back in. Or at least closely integrated again to the point we may as well be members.

We can't rejoin currently, they wouldn't allow us back in.

In a democracy, people are allowed to oppose the government.

In fact, the entire point of democracy is that people get to change their mind.

That's the reason we have a new election every 4ish years, so the electorate can change their mind.

If you only get to vote once and you're stuck with the decision forever, that's not democracy. That's why we'll get a chance to reverse Brexit, and at some stage when the demographics and sentiment have shifted we'll vote overwhelmingly to rejoin. The movement is already beginning.

[crashbang]

Germany are moaning that they are losing millions since we left.

[ragingpup]

Germany are moaning that they are losing millions since we left.

Oh thank **** for that. Doesn't matter if we're all starving, as long as the Germans are too.

[crashbang]

Oh thank **** for that. Doesn't matter if we're all starving, as long as the Germans are too.

Who's starving?

[great_fire]

If you only get to vote once and you're stuck with the decision forever, that's not democracy. That's why we'll get a chance to reverse Brexit, and at some stage when the demographics and sentiment have shifted we'll vote overwhelmingly to rejoin. The movement is already beginning.

Is there any point when we're heading for a world government anyway?

It will be the UN in charge not the EU.