O/T Trump sells out Ukraine

[Albionic68]

Two words........... stitch up.

[On Balance]

Biden was, for all his frailties, concerned he?d be responsible for taking the West into WW3. Trump on the other hand is a cowardly individual who is more aligned to the likes of Putin and Saudi Arabia?s Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, than he is aligned to the West.

Biden supplied Ukraine with military training, weapons, tanks, combat vehicles and ammunition. Trump has not done so. He sells some weapons etc. to NATO who provide it to Ukraine. A huge difference. Biden also permitted Ukraine to use long range missiles into Russia around mid November 2024. A little late perhaps, but he did provide and permit Ukraine to do so. Trump has not done so.

Trump did indicate he was going to provide Tomahawk missiles to Ukraine at a cost to NATO. And that they may be permitted to use them against legitimate targets in Russia. He then backtracked and did not provide tomahawks. Trump has done significantly less in support of Ukraine than Biden did.

Fortunately, millions of Americans have realised Trump is not what they voted for. He is a narcissist, a misogynist, a coward and a bully all in one. He is a President who is losing any credibility he may once have had. Unfortunately there is still an element that fail to see the damage he is doing long term in the first year of his second presidency.

The disgusting way he treated President Zelenskyy in the Whitehouse will not be forgotten. The disgusting way he spoke to a female reporter, on Airforce One this week, when he raged at Catherine Lucey, Bloomberg’s White House correspondent, “Quiet. Quiet, piggy.” Later on he verbally attacked a female reporter when he was in the company of Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, in the Whitehouse. “You’re a terrible person and a terrible reporter,” the president said. “You ought to go back and learn how to be a reporter. No more questions from you.” He shows such contempt towards females.

It will be interesting to see the outcome following the release of the Epstein files, if, as I think it was Leicesterbaggie said, the files are released in full or not redacted, if and/or how he was involved with a *****phile.

Unfortunately, it is a job well done by Putin, who saw a weakness in the orange coward and took advantage of it. Putin has played Trump like a true poppet master.

All those Ukraine soldiers and civilians who have lost their lives. What for I ask? What real securities will Ukraine have? What happens when Russia wants a bit more?
The West has shown it is weak. The Russian bear is not tamed, it will likely rebuild and go again.

[Dubbag]

Biden was, for all his frailties, concerned he?d be responsible for taking the West into WW3. Trump on the other hand is a cowardly individual who is more aligned to the likes of Putin and Saudi Arabia?s Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, than he is aligned to the West.

Biden supplied Ukraine with military training, weapons, tanks, combat vehicles and ammunition. Trump has not done so. He sells some weapons etc. to NATO who provide it to Ukraine. A huge difference. Biden also permitted Ukraine to use long range missiles into Russia around mid November 2024. A little late perhaps, but he did provide and permit Ukraine to do so. Trump has not done so.

Trump did indicate he was going to provide Tomahawk missiles to Ukraine at a cost to NATO. And that they may be permitted to use them against legitimate targets in Russia. He then backtracked and did not provide tomahawks. Trump has done significantly less in support of Ukraine than Biden did.

Fortunately, millions of Americans have realised Trump is not what they voted for. He is a narcissist, a misogynist, a coward and a bully all in one. He is a President who is losing any credibility he may once have had. Unfortunately there is still an element that fail to see the damage he is doing long term in the first year of his second presidency.

The disgusting way he treated President Zelenskyy in the Whitehouse will not be forgotten. The disgusting way he spoke to a female reporter, on Airforce One this week, when he raged at Catherine Lucey, Bloomberg’s White House correspondent, “Quiet. Quiet, piggy.” Later on he verbally attacked a female reporter when he was in the company of Saudi Arabia’s Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, in the Whitehouse. “You’re a terrible person and a terrible reporter,” the president said. “You ought to go back and learn how to be a reporter. No more questions from you.” He shows such contempt towards females.

It will be interesting to see the outcome following the release of the Epstein files, if, as I think it was Leicesterbaggie said, the files are released in full or not redacted, if and/or how he was involved with a *****phile.

Unfortunately, it is a job well done by Putin, who saw a weakness in the orange coward and took advantage of it. Putin has played Trump like a true poppet master.

All those Ukraine soldiers and civilians who have lost their lives. What for I ask? What real securities will Ukraine have? What happens when Russia wants a bit more?
The West has shown it is weak. The Russian bear is not tamed, it will likely rebuild and go again.

The stark reality for many dumb ass Americans nowadays is that they voted for a communist loving dick. Republicans need to understand but don't. An important week globally for Democracy.

[baggieal]

The stark reality for many dumb ass Americans nowadays is that they voted for a communist loving dick. Republicans need to understand but don't. An important week globally for Democracy.

You are right Dubs but equally many dumb ass Brits voted for Starmer and all of a sudden he?s the worst PM in history and Labour ratings are rock bottom. Many loonies still love and vote for Jeremy Corbyn who advocates any defence would be scrapped and Trident would be left to rot. Perhaps Corbyn thinks the Russians will be chums but if not they could be fought with dinner cutlery 😂

[wbaliquidator]

Putin plays Trump again.
Not even the Russians really expect anyone other than their man in the Whitehouse to accept the plan but Trump may cease any desperately needed American weapons shipments or intelligence transfer and that will be a massive win for Putin nevertheless.

Europe has had a Year now to prepare this scenario, but have they taken action? and are they willing to step up.
All that remaining military hardware in Europe needs to be sent to Ukraine now as that rainy day is here now!

Watching those poor defenceless grannies, women and kids being dug out of demolished tower blocks make me so angry.
Where are the real statesman, the leaders of the free world?
All I see is an apathetic selfish society across most the world and honestly, I despair at times.
If I were younger or in better health I would even volunteer in some way. I do support some of the charitable organisations out there and I suggest you guys do the same if you can, there are many of them and don?t say they are all corrupt as an excuse.

[baggieal]

The stark reality for many dumb ass Americans nowadays is that they voted for a communist loving dick. Republicans need to understand but don't. An important week globally for Democracy.

Putin plays Trump again.
Not even the Russians really expect anyone other than their man in the Whitehouse to accept the plan but Trump may cease any desperately needed American weapons shipments or intelligence transfer and that will be a massive win for Putin nevertheless.

Europe has had a Year now to prepare this scenario, but have they taken action? and are they willing to step up.
All that remaining military hardware in Europe needs to be sent to Ukraine now as that rainy day is here now!

Watching those poor defenceless grannies, women and kids being dug out of demolished tower blocks make me so angry.
Where are the real statesman, the leaders of the free world?
All I see is an apathetic selfish society across most the world and honestly, I despair at times.
If I were younger or in better health I would even volunteer in some way. I do support some of the charitable organisations out there and I suggest you guys do the same if you can, there are many of them and don?t say they are all corrupt as an excuse.

Totally agree with you! Trump is a disgusting individual for doing this. Shame on him!

The NATO allies need to grow a pair now and use the billions in frozen assets in Brussels to take the battle to Putin!

They should also ignore Trumps pathetic peace plan as yesterdays chip paper

[On Balance]

Nine European countries, including the UK, as well as Japan, Canada and the European Union, publicly expressed their unease with the US plan.

It also is emerging that although Trump is saying the plan was drawn up by his officials and endorsed by him. There is concern that the plan was actually drawn up by Russia and proposed to the Trump administration. It has been suggested it was a document leaked by someone on the Russian side and that it appeared Russian in nature, including the way it had been written.

Republican senators say Secretary of State Marco Rubio told them it was not in fact an American proposal, but a Russian plan, leaked by the Russian side, and the Ukrainians would be able to respond to it and negotiate.

Looks like a right old mess Trump has got himself into. Truth will out in the end. It usually does.

[Leicesterbaggie]

Nine European countries, including the UK, as well as Japan, Canada and the European Union, publicly expressed their unease with the US plan.

It also is emerging that although Trump is saying the plan was drawn up by his officials and endorsed by him. There is concern that the plan was actually drawn up by Russia and proposed to the Trump administration. It has been suggested it was a document leaked by someone on the Russian side and that it appeared Russian in nature, including the way it had been written.

Republican senators say Secretary of State Marco Rubio told them it was not in fact an American proposal, but a Russian plan, leaked by the Russian side, and the Ukrainians would be able to respond to it and negotiate.

Looks like a right old mess Trump has got himself into. Truth will out in the end. It usually does.

Regretfully, with regards to Trump I am not so sure that your final two sentences are correct.

[baggieal]

The problem is the weak and gutless leaders like Starmer won?t criticise the plan. Starmer says there?s work to be done - how gutless can he be!

Trump has sold out Ukraine and disgusting he?s done this. The question is why?

[Omegstrat6]

The problem is the weak and gutless leaders like Starmer won?t criticise the plan. Starmer says there?s work to be done - how gutless can he be!

Trump has sold out Ukraine and disgusting he?s done this. The question is why?

Exactly the question posed at the start of this thread Al.

Over the course of his current tenure, it has become increasingly apparent that Trump is not only narcissistic but is also at heart a grifter who seems bereft of any moral compass. His primary concern seems to be seeking means to enrich himself and he tweets a constant stream of lies and exaggerations about his achievements to cover up the fact that, regardless of his Big Beautiful Tariffs or his success in dealing with illegal immigration, the vast majority of Americans can see no real improvements in their own lives. Indeed, many of the country's more vulnerable are now worse off. This realization is clearly now dawning on a growing number as his present approval ratings have dropped to 38%.

The question is whether it is this nature of America's Toddler-in-Chief that has led to him endorsing the 28 point plan -which is overwhelming in favour of Russia-or whether there is actually something in all the whispers and conspiracy theories and that Putin has some hold over him.

As for Starmer and other European leaders, as an editorial in the Independent pointed out, there are some senior figures who would like to tell Trump to just f u ck o ff but they believe that Europe alone is not powerful enough to have the leverage needed against Putin and no-one trusts the present POTUS to support them if the worst came to the worst. Given this, they have to indulge in a bit of realpolitik because they know that Trump both responds well to flattery and has consistently shown that he can change his mind much depending on who last has his ear. It's also very much like dealing with a toddler, ordinarily you ignore them but this means both parents agreeing to do the same. In this case, however, if the West ignores his tantrums then Putin only has to show him some attention and he will happily toddle towards him instead.

I guess the initial hope is that the West can dissuade Trump from sticking to his Thanksgiving deadline (and history has shown that Trump's deadlines are rarely that), flatter him that his plan is a good starting point for peace and then use this to alter aspects of the plan to try and create a more just solution. The very obvious problem is that this is little short of stalling and in the meantime Putin will continue to bomb Ukraine regardless of any further Russian losses simply because no-one is going to stop him. This last -as liquidator pointed out -is a rather damning indictment of our current Western leadership.