O/T:- Palestine / Israel

[Old_pie]

I've just watched a 2017 documentary by a reporter whose relative was involved in the Balfour Declaration. She had access to people on both sides.

It is available on BBC iPlayer so you'll need a licence to legally watch it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...-the-holy-land

There seems now to be no viable solution. Hatred despair and anger breeding outrage up outrage.

It is worth a watch if you are interested in the background to all of this.

There are a number of YouTube videos on the subject though I would be wary about their motives.

Also of possible interest is the Islam claim to Jerusalem.

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...mmad+jerusalem

Very telling to me is that the Jews have built a thriving economy in a land that was deemed pretty barren.

[Magpies1959]

Very disturbing to hear that a large number of young people in this country see Hamas as freedom fighters, rather than terrorists.

[magpie_mania]

Very disturbing to hear that a large number of young people in this country see Hamas as freedom fighters, rather than terrorists.

Why do you think that is?

[i961pie]

Why do you think that is?

Do you think Hamas would cease their activities if they defeated Israel? They like Hezbollah and the Taliban etc. hate the west.

[keldsyke]

Why do you think that is?

'Cos it's on the internet so it must be true innit' (Nella Rose)

[Kent Magpie]

Very disturbing to hear that a large number of young people in this country see Hamas as freedom fighters, rather than terrorists.

It was always thus - in my day it was the PLO. Israel defeated / discredited them... and they became Hamas. I feel this is history repeating itself.

[Old_pie]

It was always thus - in my day it was the PLO. Israel defeated / discredited them... and they became Hamas. I feel this is history repeating itself.

PLO did not become HAMAS.

If you watch the documentary I cited earlier you'd see that the PLO (Arafat) and Rabin had agreed a Peace Deal (Oslo Accord) and the two men considered each other as partners. Unfortunately Arafat did not control all the extremists and Hamas didn't go along with the deal. So really Hamas defeated the PLO, not Israel.

Rabin being then assassinated by a Jewish right-wing extremist, and Arafat failing to achieve the agreed Palestinian liberation, and subsequently also died in somewhat mysterious circumstances, shows how hard this all is without having misinformation.

[Kent Magpie]

PLO did not become HAMAS.

If you watch the documentary I cited earlier you'd see that the PLO (Arafat) and Rabin had agreed a Peace Deal (Oslo Accord) and the two men considered each other as partners. Unfortunately Arafat did not control all the extremists and Hamas didn't go along with the deal. So really Hamas defeated the PLO, not Israel.

Rabin being then assassinated by a Jewish right-wing extremist, and Arafat failing to achieve the agreed Palestinian liberation, and subsequently also died in somewhat mysterious circumstances, shows how hard this all is without having misinformation.

Sorry - poor choice of words 'Became' wasn't correct. But I thought they were saying on the Alasdair Campbell / Rory Stewart podcast that Hamas filled the void left by the PLO, i.e. with the assassination of Rabin and subsequent marginalisation of Arafat (as he lost his negotiating partner), everything became more extreme - on both sides. It is indeed complex, and difficult to follow.

[Newish Pie]

Very disturbing to hear that a large number of young people in this country see Hamas as freedom fighters, rather than terrorists.

What's the evidence for this? I mean, I'm sure that there are some people who think that. But the good news for people who worry about this sort of thing is that the vast majority of people who are worried about Palestinian lives and Palestinian rights absolutely do not see Hamas as freedom fighters and completely condemn their actions. Both the recent terrorist attacks, and the way they treat their own people.

There's been a concerted effort by the likes of Braverman and others with their talk of "hate marches" to smear everyone who's calling for a ceasefire/peaceful resolution as some sort of Hamas apologist. It's a deliberate and disgraceful lie, and it's sad to see people believing it.

It's fine to have open and honest disagreement about issues, but it's not fine to smear or misrepresent opposing views. Doesn't matter who does it, on what side, or on what issue. It's just wrong. It prevents open and honest debate and only increases division.

[Old_pie]

What's the evidence for this? I mean, I'm sure that there are some people who think that. But the good news for people who worry about this sort of thing is that the vast majority of people who are worried about Palestinian lives and Palestinian rights absolutely do not see Hamas as freedom fighters and completely condemn their actions. Both the recent terrorist attacks, and the way they treat their own people.

There's been a concerted effort by the likes of Braverman and others with their talk of "hate marches" to smear everyone who's calling for a ceasefire/peaceful resolution as some sort of Hamas apologist. It's a deliberate and disgraceful lie, and it's sad to see people believing it.

It's fine to have open and honest disagreement about issues, but it's not fine to smear or misrepresent opposing views. Doesn't matter who does it, on what side, or on what issue. It's just wrong. It prevents open and honest debate and only increases division.

So many "well meaning" people want to see a ceasefire. No normal human being can watch the pain and suffering without wishing for a peaceful solution.

But there is not enough news coverage on who the IDF are fighting. Again I will refer to the documentary I cited, made in 2017, when standing near the Gaza border the Israelis were fearful of what was below their feet, and as they observered a Hamas look-out post shots were fired. Are the IDF going into Hospitals fighting nurses and doctors? Who is fighting back, surely someone is fighting back? Why are they there in the first place. Why are the brave freedom fighters lurking in well constructed tunnels within civilian infrastructure? In 2015 even Egypt flooded, with sea water, the Hamas tunnels near their border.

A ceasefire simply gives Hamas time and space to regroup to cause more havoc. Their stated aim is the destruction of Israel. That is the freedom they are fighting for however many Palestinian lives it costs.