O/T:- Vaccines: Pro/Anti & Conspiracy Theories [Originally Covid Pass and Meadow Ln.]

[macstop]

It seems that you are trying to convince yourself that you are safe without being vaccinated - hope for your sake you are right!

umm some people could reverse that whole sentence buddy.

[upthemaggies]

What's uncaptured medical opinion? Do you really think that The Lancet, The BMJ et al are publishing studies involving thousands of captured medical professionals? Surely not.

As for opinions, well yes, we could base our opinions on gut instinct, but that's not very reliable is it. As for an inquisitive mind, I'm genuinely puzzled as to why this doesn't extend to including the robust evidence FOR vaccination.

The pharma industry is unbelievably powerful and corrupt. We've got the Ex-MI6 chief now claiming Britain's science sector has been compromised by 'malign Chinese Communist influence' , which may or may not be true, but does demonstrate the shaky ground we're now all standing on.

[macstop]

The pharma industry is unbelievably powerful and corrupt. We've got the Ex-MI6 chief now claiming Britain's science sector has been compromised by 'malign Chinese Communist influence' , which may or may not be true, but does demonstrate the shaky ground we're now all standing on.

The problem is people think humans don't hurt other humans, but history is littered with it, from accidents greed and gain, i could list you plenty, and take covid away it's still happening, just look at the things we die of now, than say 150 years ago.

[upthemaggies]

The problem is people think humans don't hurt other humans, but history is littered with it, from accidents greed and gain, i could list you plenty, and take covid away it's still happening, just look at the things we die of now, than say 150 years ago.

"Follow the money" is usually good advise on a capitalist landscape, but there is a sense of unease now that something quite evil is going on. It's getting to the stage now that it's so insane what they're doing (such as diverting resources into bringing kids as young as 5 into a medical experiment who are at no risk, whilst people with genuine health issues can't get treatment), you start to wonder if some dark force out there is deliberately trying to destroy the health of the free west - with us being already half way there with our abysmal diets and addictions.

[BigFatPie]

My concern is the complete lack of nuance or open debate at the point we've reached. We've developed a global appetite for being in two horse races where you're either in one team or the other. A degree of inaccuracy or sometimes a downright lie is ok if you're doing it for the right reasons it seems.

This goes both ways. I saw a social media post where the author shared a video of an 'ambulance crew' pushing a gurney on a pavement then doing multiple takes. This was claimed to be evidence of crisis actors but was in fact the taping of a scene for Holby City. At the same time ITV used an actual crisis actor (whose professional profile is still online) doing his best puppy dog eyes saying he wished he'd been jabbed. Others have also been used.

You have Dr Hillary saying 90% of admissions are unjabbed when the actual figure was 35%. Granted he is widely known as an oily little weasel but even The Economist quoted 80%-90% around the same time before discreetly saying the data was 'out of date'.

I personally have no idea what level of protection the vaccine gives. I do remember the 'trial' results of 95% protection and whichever meaningful studies you now use (ie not Javid et al's favourite of '32 times more likely' etc) it's clearly way less than that. At the same time there is a clear uplift in protection and I can't see how this can be denied.

Early on there was a brief push on the issue of personal health and fitness. It just stopped. Telling people that some of their problems might be their own fault is never a good idea when the other side will tell them it isn't.

Someone has used the usual comeback to the comparison with smokers, the obese etc, being 'you can't catch them'. Aside from the risk of passive smoking that is true.

However there is a multitude of studies showing that the obese have far higher chances of worse outcomes and more severe infection even than people who are just overweight. There were also other studies (admittedly pre vaccine) which showed that based on actual droplet output 80% of transmission was caused by 20% of people. The main drivers? Level of infection (heavily influenced by obesity), age and BMI. Whenever the media gleefully come across an unvaxxed patient who 'wishes they'd had the jab' they are usually described either as 'having no underlying conditions' or 'fit and healthy', yet they are almost invariably enormous.


Obesity is rising alarmingly fast (up 22% even before lockdown no.1). In 2018 11,000 people were admitted to hospital with obesity itself listed as the primary factor). Given that the justification for every wave of cancelled non-covid appointments, missed diagnoses, increases in depression, suicide, domestic violence, child abuse etc is usually 'to prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed' why is covid so special?

One of my best friends spent 3 years at AZ and from his experience what are referred to as 'lifestyle drugs' are massively profitable and are of course most welcome. Yet what will protect the NHS from increased admissions due to poor lifestyle choices?

There are clearly people whose risk profile means that the vaccine is a very good bet for them. My children and I, for example, are clearly not.

It is extremely difficult to separate the factual truth from the rest at the best of times but it has never been harder than it is now. The outright censorship of views which don't at least unquestioningly back the efficacy of vaccines is cause for concern in itself. Social media fastidiously scrubs itself clean yet the Taliban have a Twitter account when vaccine scepticism is seen as dangerous. The mental gymnastics which are being attempted even to avoid a conversation about the increased instances of heart scares etc in athletes are astonishing. Just have the conversation, be honest about vested interests and don't feel you always have to back 'the team'. It's ok not to have a clue but to try to mitigate your own risk whilst considering others as best you can

I don’t really know what point you think you’re making in regard to obesity. Yes, overweight people are more prone to worse symptoms of Covid, just like they are with a whole range of diseases. Should they lose weight and try to have a healthier lifestyle? Of course they should. Does this have any relevance to vaccines ? No, of course not.

Passive smoking was identified as a major hazard to health. That’s why smoking was banned in public places. Quitting smoking and losing weight have been probably been the two main public health messages of the last 30 years. Vaccines along with sanitation have been the biggest public health success in human history.

Since the pandemic started this board has been refreshingly free of vaccine misinformation. I’ve never asked for messages to be deleted, but I think there’s a very good argument that anti vax nonsense shouldn’t be tolerated.

[macstop]

"Follow the money" is usually good advise on a capitalist landscape, but there is a sense of unease now that something quite evil is going on. It's getting to the stage now that it's so insane what they're doing (such as diverting resources into bringing kids as young as 5 into a medical experiment who are at no risk, whilst people with genuine health issues can't get treatment), you start to wonder if some dark force out there is deliberately trying to destroy the health of the free west - with us being already half way there with our abysmal diets and addictions.

Yes UTM, this brings me back to my cancer days, the decisions they make you take on you own life, sleepless nights thinking what should i do, but the problem with covid it seems as though it's the government that decides your fate for you, not just this government but all of them, some more ruthless than others.

[SwalePie]

From all the published statistical information it is extremely clear that the vaccines 'work' to varying levels in different groups of people. For example it would be extremely difficult to argue that they don't work against mortality from Covid-19 when just 1.2% of the deaths from the disease in England for the first half of 2021 were fully vaccinated individuals. ( I appreciate that in the timescale of this pandemic that is months out of date but it is a figure taken from strong and well reviewed data.)

Obviously that old chestnut that 'you can say anything you like using statistics' makes us all very wary of such data. However, when the data is consistently in the same range from multiple sources in multiple countries on multiple continents it should become harder and harder to question. With the arrival of the newest widespread variant, Omicron, and future variants, the data will probably vary from that from previous variants but hopefully not by much.

While I, like most people, would never question an individual's right to make their own choices for their own health, I do question why people do so in the face of such overwhelming information contradicting their views. Of course, like everyone else on here, I've made my choices based in large part on my own belief system, not just on the available facts. Ultimately this is where the polarisation comes from. From where I stand on this (and I am clearly in the pro-vaccine camp, for clarity) I hope that everyone who is labelled a 'conspiracy theorist' and thrown in the bin by the other 'team', can perhaps be slowly convinced by solid data to get protected and protect others by use of the vaccines and other precautions such as mask-wearing. That is my stance but I don't hate the 'other side', that would be pointless and damaging.

Anti-vaccine folk calling pro-vaccine people 'sheep' etc. and pro-vaccine people in return calling them ' tinfoil-hat nutters' etc. isn't helping humanity. This polarisation in recent years on so many issues, from Brexit to Trump and now Covid-19, fuelled in a massive way by social media's echo-chamber algorithms, is probably public enemy number two after the coronavirus pandemic at number one in our current world. Sad and dangerous times. I hope we can avoid breaking up friendships and remain good to each other regardless of our disagreements.

[sinophile]

Unfortunately, this discussion has degenerated into a flood of baseless conspiracy theories. All that really maters is expert public health advice. My last words on the subject. Goodbye and stay safe, and get vaccinated.

[upthemaggies]

From all the published statistical information it is extremely clear that the vaccines 'work' to varying levels in different groups of people. For example it would be extremely difficult to argue that they don't work against mortality from Covid-19 when just 1.2% of the deaths from the disease in England for the first half of 2021 were fully vaccinated individuals. ( I appreciate that in the timescale of this pandemic that is months out of date but it is a figure taken from strong and well reviewed data.)

Obviously that old chestnut that 'you can say anything you like using statistics' makes us all very wary of such data. However, when the data is consistently in the same range from multiple sources in multiple countries on multiple continents it should become harder and harder to question. With the arrival of the newest widespread variant, Omicron, and future variants, the data will probably vary from that from previous variants but hopefully not by much.

While I, like most people, would never question an individual's right to make their own choices for their own health, I do question why people do so in the face of such overwhelming information contradicting their views. Of course, like everyone else on here, I've made my choices based in large part on my own belief system, not just on the available facts. Ultimately this is where the polarisation comes from. From where I stand on this (and I am clearly in the pro-vaccine camp, for clarity) I hope that everyone who is labelled a 'conspiracy theorist' and thrown in the bin by the other 'team', can perhaps be slowly convinced by solid data to get protected and protect others by use of the vaccines and other precautions such as mask-wearing. That is my stance but I don't hate the 'other side', that would be pointless and damaging.

Anti-vaccine folk calling pro-vaccine people 'sheep' etc. and pro-vaccine people in return calling them ' tinfoil-hat nutters' etc. isn't helping humanity. This polarisation in recent years on so many issues, from Brexit to Trump and now Covid-19, fuelled in a massive way by social media's echo-chamber algorithms, is probably public enemy number two after the coronavirus pandemic at number one in our current world. Sad and dangerous times. I hope we can avoid breaking up friendships and remain good to each other regardless of our disagreements.

We're all sheep, but some of us are the "weird sheep" who don't always behave as you'd expect of a sheep. When it snows, most sheep stand around confused having lost their bearings, then you get the one sheep who jumps onto a wagon or something. He's the "weird sheep".

"the vaccines 'work' to varying levels". Well that's just the point, it's not a sterilising vaccine, it's a prophylactic and a weak one at that, we're looking at 10 weeks tops now. Basic understanding of biological evolution will tell you've got real problems with that.

[BigFatPie]

You are such an idiot sometimes. Good bit of research, but I'll point out where you fall down. Some of the cases that have been reported as 'Covid Deaths' have nothing to do with Covid, but are just reported to increase the level of fear within the country (see below for the latest case that was reported). A man shot and killed in his driveway was reported as a Covid death.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckla...3L4WWJYTUZNCQ/

My comment has nothing to do with politics but with the slow removal of civil liberties. You are the expert on nothing but 'sh!t' as you put it.

You neglect to add about the the massive increase in suicides and also the undiagnosed cancers and other life threatening, treatable illnesses that have been missed due to lockdowns. Mind you, only having one eye, you wouldn't see both sides would you? And that one eye is on the top of your head.

So you’re saying there’s been even fewer than 44 deaths? Wow. Jacinda has done a really good job hasn’t she? Not like the clown we have.

Yes, pandemics and lockdowns are awful things, thankfully we now have vaccines to try to mitigate against this one, but you’re against them for some reason.

Yes, cancer patients and other vulnerable people will have died because of the pandemic, lockdowns and under pressure health services. If the NHS in the UK had been properly funded for the last 11 years it would have been much better prepared for the current situation. That’s one of the reasons why I didn’t vote for the party that’s responsible for that underfunding. Who would you have voted for?