O/T:- Vaccines: Pro/Anti & Conspiracy Theories [Originally Covid Pass and Meadow Ln.]

[upthemaggies]

I don't understand this. Vaccinated people (even as protection wanes) are less likely to catch covid than unvaccinated people. So surely they are a lesser concern in terms of needing protection. Why don't the unvaccinated also need protection?

Stating the obvious, but it's worth thinking about - Being vaccinated or having natural immunity, doesn't give you an invisible force field around the body that prevents the virus entering through the nose/mouth. Your immune system still has to deal with it, so you have a degree of reaction to it, which might reach the point of symptoms you don't notice, mild symptoms and so on.

For the sake of argument, if somebody with very mild symptoms breathes out into a room for an hour, that might be no less volume of Covid in the air than somebody with heavy symptoms coming in for 10 minutes. The length of time I'm offering is random, but the point stands. Somebody with heavy symptoms will be sent home, somebody with mild won't necessarily be noticed.

The idea that people vaxxed are less likely to catch it and spread it is BS in my opinion.

Unvaxxed will not have had their natural immunity compromised by the cost benefit of the vaccine to deal with milder variants, particularly if they've had Covid which probably most have.

[upthemaggies]

I am completely with Neil on this matter, but my biggest fear is where the damn thing came from, it certainly did not come from bats, and if senator Paul Rand is correct we should be real scared, because this deadly stuff is still being made in China, and not by the Chinese.

P.S. if you all want to get scared of dying, get cancer like i did 14 months ago, i have had covid at the same time and that was a breeze, and i believe my immune system is stronger than any vax, but of cause no one is willing to test me.

In science you can never say with 100% certainty, but the odds of this being a naturally incubated virus that can leap from animal to humans is ridiculously high, it bears all the hallmarks of gain of function experiments (speeding up evolutionary process with human interventions to its behaviour) . It has almost certainly come out of a lab and then you're only a stone's throw away from it being a deliberate leak. Basically, biological warfare.

Some link this to Chinese backed communist infiltration into academia and institutions in the US, but I think that's probably more of a relic of the KGB or a natural consequence of baby boomer generation gap rebellion happening on an unprecedented large scale in the 1960s. Even Peter Hitchens was a Trotskyist back then.

[upthemaggies]

Basically, biological warfare.
.

I really should add that the Wuhan lab and the gain of function experiments were being funded (or at least partly) by the US. So there is definitely room for the argument that the pharma industry was behind it. If you look at the involvement of Trump for example in anticipating the coming pandemic before we'd even heard of Covid, you can see why people see a conspiracy. I just think there's too much chaos out there for any one group to organise such a thing on its own. Might be a case of a collusion between the Chinese government and big pharma though with people like Trump, Bill Gates following the money.

[cher1]

The idea that people vaxxed are less likely to catch it and spread it is BS in my opinion.

The reality is though that your (presumably non medical?) opinion, just like mine, is of no consequence. The actual facts, from published, peer reviewed studies are that vaccination reduces the severity of illness, the likelihood of hospitalisations, and of death. As for transmission, even since the Delta variant arrived, vaccinated people are less likely to transmit covid than unvaccinated people.

[BanjoPie]

Stating the obvious, but it's worth thinking about - Being vaccinated or having natural immunity, doesn't give you an invisible force field around the body that prevents the virus entering through the nose/mouth. Your immune system still has to deal with it, so you have a degree of reaction to it, which might reach the point of symptoms you don't notice, mild symptoms and so on.

For the sake of argument, if somebody with very mild symptoms breathes out into a room for an hour, that might be no less volume of Covid in the air than somebody with heavy symptoms coming in for 10 minutes. The length of time I'm offering is random, but the point stands. Somebody with heavy symptoms will be sent home, somebody with mild won't necessarily be noticed.

The idea that people vaxxed are less likely to catch it and spread it is BS in my opinion.

Unvaxxed will not have had their natural immunity compromised by the cost benefit of the vaccine to deal with milder variants, particularly if they've had Covid which probably most have.

It seems that you are trying to convince yourself that you are safe without being vaccinated - hope for your sake you are right!

[upthemaggies]

The reality is though that your (presumably non medical?) opinion, just like mine, is of no consequence. The actual facts, from published, peer reviewed studies are that vaccination reduces the severity of illness, the likelihood of hospitalisations, and of death. As for transmission, even since the Delta variant arrived, vaccinated people are less likely to transmit covid than unvaccinated people.

Our own opinion is of ultimate consequence to our own health. You could go as far to say that it's a life or death decision. I'm basing mine on non-captured medical opinion - the door to which was opened by gut instinct and an inquisitive mind.

[Bernard_Bresslaw]

My concern is the complete lack of nuance or open debate at the point we've reached. We've developed a global appetite for being in two horse races where you're either in one team or the other. A degree of inaccuracy or sometimes a downright lie is ok if you're doing it for the right reasons it seems.

This goes both ways. I saw a social media post where the author shared a video of an 'ambulance crew' pushing a gurney on a pavement then doing multiple takes. This was claimed to be evidence of crisis actors but was in fact the taping of a scene for Holby City. At the same time ITV used an actual crisis actor (whose professional profile is still online) doing his best puppy dog eyes saying he wished he'd been jabbed. Others have also been used.

You have Dr Hillary saying 90% of admissions are unjabbed when the actual figure was 35%. Granted he is widely known as an oily little weasel but even The Economist quoted 80%-90% around the same time before discreetly saying the data was 'out of date'.

I personally have no idea what level of protection the vaccine gives. I do remember the 'trial' results of 95% protection and whichever meaningful studies you now use (ie not Javid et al's favourite of '32 times more likely' etc) it's clearly way less than that. At the same time there is a clear uplift in protection and I can't see how this can be denied.

Early on there was a brief push on the issue of personal health and fitness. It just stopped. Telling people that some of their problems might be their own fault is never a good idea when the other side will tell them it isn't.

Someone has used the usual comeback to the comparison with smokers, the obese etc, being 'you can't catch them'. Aside from the risk of passive smoking that is true.

However there is a multitude of studies showing that the obese have far higher chances of worse outcomes and more severe infection even than people who are just overweight. There were also other studies (admittedly pre vaccine) which showed that based on actual droplet output 80% of transmission was caused by 20% of people. The main drivers? Level of infection (heavily influenced by obesity), age and BMI. Whenever the media gleefully come across an unvaxxed patient who 'wishes they'd had the jab' they are usually described either as 'having no underlying conditions' or 'fit and healthy', yet they are almost invariably enormous.


Obesity is rising alarmingly fast (up 22% even before lockdown no.1). In 2018 11,000 people were admitted to hospital with obesity itself listed as the primary factor). Given that the justification for every wave of cancelled non-covid appointments, missed diagnoses, increases in depression, suicide, domestic violence, child abuse etc is usually 'to prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed' why is covid so special?

One of my best friends spent 3 years at AZ and from his experience what are referred to as 'lifestyle drugs' are massively profitable and are of course most welcome. Yet what will protect the NHS from increased admissions due to poor lifestyle choices?

There are clearly people whose risk profile means that the vaccine is a very good bet for them. My children and I, for example, are clearly not.

It is extremely difficult to separate the factual truth from the rest at the best of times but it has never been harder than it is now. The outright censorship of views which don't at least unquestioningly back the efficacy of vaccines is cause for concern in itself. Social media fastidiously scrubs itself clean yet the Taliban have a Twitter account when vaccine scepticism is seen as dangerous. The mental gymnastics which are being attempted even to avoid a conversation about the increased instances of heart scares etc in athletes are astonishing. Just have the conversation, be honest about vested interests and don't feel you always have to back 'the team'. It's ok not to have a clue but to try to mitigate your own risk whilst considering others as best you can

[upthemaggies]

It seems that you are trying to convince yourself that you are safe without being vaccinated - hope for your sake you are right!

I hear what you say and there is something in that, but we're all doing it to some extent. A lot of the vaxxed are now doubling down. a lot of cognitive dissonance going on.

[upthemaggies]

My concern is the complete lack of nuance or open debate at the point we've reached. We've developed a global appetite for being in two horse races where you're either in one team or the other. A degree of inaccuracy or sometimes a downright lie is ok if you're doing it for the right reasons it seems.

This goes both ways. I saw a social media post where the author shared a video of an 'ambulance crew' pushing a gurney on a pavement then doing multiple takes. This was claimed to be evidence of crisis actors but was in fact the taping of a scene for Holby City. At the same time ITV used an actual crisis actor (whose professional profile is still online) doing his best puppy dog eyes saying he wished he'd been jabbed. Others have also been used.

You have Dr Hillary saying 90% of admissions are unjabbed when the actual figure was 35%. Granted he is widely known as an oily little weasel but even The Economist quoted 80%-90% around the same time before discreetly saying the data was 'out of date'.

I personally have no idea what level of protection the vaccine gives. I do remember the 'trial' results of 95% protection and whichever meaningful studies you now use (ie not Javid et al's favourite of '32 times more likely' etc) it's clearly way less than that. At the same time there is a clear uplift in protection and I can't see how this can be denied.

Early on there was a brief push on the issue of personal health and fitness. It just stopped. Telling people that some of their problems might be their own fault is never a good idea when the other side will tell them it isn't.

Someone has used the usual comeback to the comparison with smokers, the obese etc, being 'you can't catch them'. Aside from the risk of passive smoking that is true.

However there is a multitude of studies showing that the obese have far higher chances of worse outcomes and more severe infection even than people who are just overweight. There were also other studies (admittedly pre vaccine) which showed that based on actual droplet output 80% of transmission was caused by 20% of people. The main drivers? Level of infection (heavily influenced by obesity), age and BMI. Whenever the media gleefully come across an unvaxxed patient who 'wishes they'd had the jab' they are usually described either as 'having no underlying conditions' or 'fit and healthy', yet they are almost invariably enormous.


Obesity is rising alarmingly fast (up 22% even before lockdown no.1). In 2018 11,000 people were admitted to hospital with obesity itself listed as the primary factor). Given that the justification for every wave of cancelled non-covid appointments, missed diagnoses, increases in depression, suicide, domestic violence, child abuse etc is usually 'to prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed' why is covid so special?

One of my best friends spent 3 years at AZ and from his experience what are referred to as 'lifestyle drugs' are massively profitable and are of course most welcome. Yet what will protect the NHS from increased admissions due to poor lifestyle choices?

There are clearly people whose risk profile means that the vaccine is a very good bet for them. My children and I, for example, are clearly not.

It is extremely difficult to separate the factual truth from the rest at the best of times but it has never been harder than it is now. The outright censorship of views which don't at least unquestioningly back the efficacy of vaccines is cause for concern in itself. Social media fastidiously scrubs itself clean yet the Taliban have a Twitter account when vaccine scepticism is seen as dangerous. The mental gymnastics which are being attempted even to avoid a conversation about the increased instances of heart scares etc in athletes are astonishing. Just have the conversation, be honest about vested interests and don't feel you always have to back 'the team'. It's ok not to have a clue but to try to mitigate your own risk whilst considering others as best you can

That's a great post.

I do feel for people who haven't had Covid that have been jabbed and are now having doubts. What do you do next? I wouldn't want to be in that position.

There are a lot of doomsday scenarios, but the one great hope would be that the human body has a remarkable capacity for repairing itself. So whatever damage is done by stress, the virus or vaccines, hopefully the majority can bounce back.

[cher1]

Our own opinion is of ultimate consequence to our own health. You could go as far to say that it's a life or death decision. I'm basing mine on non-captured medical opinion - the door to which was opened by gut instinct and an inquisitive mind.

What's uncaptured medical opinion? Do you really think that The Lancet, The BMJ et al are publishing studies involving thousands of captured medical professionals? Surely not.

As for opinions, well yes, we could base our opinions on gut instinct, but that's not very reliable is it. As for an inquisitive mind, I'm genuinely puzzled as to why this doesn't extend to including the robust evidence FOR vaccination.