O/T:- Covid Trump

[drillerpie]

I think this is now an interesting conversation between Jackal and BFP.

To answer BFP's questions about Trump voter concerns, I'd say that election fraud is the main one right now. This is not an ideal situation; as some Republican senators pointed out before the confirmation hearing, a fair part of the electorate don't have confidence in the result of the last election, which is a problem in any democracy, but the reason they don't have confidence in it is because the sitting president has lied through his teeth about it for weeks. Can you start derailing the process of inaugurating the new president, in the middle of numerous crises, for no other reason than the current president is a sore loser? For me the answer is no, although a way does need to be found to increase confidence in future elections.

Then I'd say there's a feeling that the government, of whichever of the two traditional parties happens to be in power, is not working in their interests. This is probably true, in as much as corporate and donor interests are very high up the list of traditional Rep/Dem priorities, but the paradox is that Trump, despite his 'drain the swamp' rhetoric, took that to a whole new level.

Other grievances would probably be that the media doesn't represent their views or interests fairly, which I have some sympathy with, but again there's the paradox that a lot of Conservative media is no better and is in fact arguably worse. In any case, this is one of the huge challenges of our time, especially regarding social media, which provides users with either content that enrages them or content that mirrors exactly what they already think, in order to keep them engaged and keep producing billions in ad revenue for the big tech companies. It's remarkable how politics has changed the world over since people started using social media, and these companies are getting rich while polarisation increases and our democracies creak under the weight of misinformation. This simply can't continue as it is now.

Apart from that there would be the classic conservative grievances of gun rights and abortion, and of course law and order, although that will have actually pushed some conservatives and centrists away from Trump in the past few days.

[BigFatPie]

I think this is now an interesting conversation between Jackal and BFP.

To answer BFP's questions about Trump voter concerns, I'd say that election fraud is the main one right now. This is not an ideal situation; as some Republican senators pointed out before the confirmation hearing, a fair part of the electorate don't have confidence in the result of the last election, which is a problem in any democracy, but the reason they don't have confidence in it is because the sitting president has lied through his teeth about it for weeks. Can you start derailing the process of inaugurating the new president, in the middle of numerous crises, for no other reason than the current president is a sore loser? For me the answer is no, although a way does need to be found to increase confidence in future elections.

Then I'd say there's a feeling that the government, of whichever of the two traditional parties happens to be in power, is not working in their interests. This is probably true, in as much as corporate and donor interests are very high up the list of traditional Rep/Dem priorities, but the paradox is that Trump, despite his 'drain the swamp' rhetoric, took that to a whole new level.

Other grievances would probably be that the media doesn't represent their views or interests fairly, which I have some sympathy with, but again there's the paradox that a lot of Conservative media is no better and is in fact arguably worse. In any case, this is one of the huge challenges of our time, especially regarding social media, which provides users with either content that enrages them or content that mirrors exactly what they already think, in order to keep them engaged and keep producing billions in ad revenue for the big tech companies. It's remarkable how politics has changed the world over since people started using social media, and these companies are getting rich while polarisation increases and our democracies creak under the weight of misinformation. This simply can't continue as it is now.

Apart from that there would be the classic conservative grievances of gun rights and abortion, and of course law and order, although that will have actually pushed some conservatives and centrists away from Trump in the past few days.

Thanks for the attempt at answering the questions I had, Jackal seems reluctant to for whatever reason.

Yeah, there seems a sizeable proportion of Trump voters who think the election was ‘stolen’. Baseless of course, but enough for some to riot the other day and others to no doubt shout at their telly(I do that a lot). We know why they all think that. Trump certainly didn’t work in anyone’s interest except for himself, other rich people and fossil fuel interests. The big victory for him and other right wing politicians is they they convince enough people that they’re working in their interests. Which brings us on to the ..l

The media haven’t been mentioned much in this thread. You could say that Trump fans have been radicalised by Fox and OAN and FB and Parler(good old free speech). That’s the world these days.. There’s the right wing print media in this country, people who buy those newspapers will swear blind they’re not being influenced but we all know they are, otherwise why would billionaires bother with them in the first place. Corbyn and Starner would have been rinsed day in day out if they had done the same job as Johnson has done in charge of the pandemic, and they would probably have been forced to resign. The vaccination programme has been going well, suddenly international comparisons are being welcomed again.

Trump voters are certainly concerned with abortion and gun rights, I don’t know what Jackal thinks Biden should do about those issues, we have a decent idea what the evidence says, I’m guessing Jackal thinks Biden should ignore the evidence to placate Trimp voters, who knows.

Yesterday evening Biden tweeted that he was going to increase the federal minimum wage to $15 an hour, it’s currently $7.50 an hour, though some states(largely Democrat) have something higher. It hasn’t been raised since 2009. Trump voters will probably dismiss that as ‘socialism’ but will help far more people than ‘draining the swamp’ or any other fatuous slogan.

We all know what right wing leaning people are against, it’s about time they thought about what they are for.

[Elite_Pie]

To answer BFP's questions about Trump voter concerns, I'd say that election fraud is the main one right now.

It seems like quite a lot of Republicans are convinced that electoral fraud really happened, but I'm equally convinced that it's just sheer desperation from Trump. He will never, ever admit that he was beaten fair and square, so he thinks if he repeats it often enough many of his diehard supporters will be taken in, and it looks like they are.

Every single claim has been thrown out by the courts, but there is one deciding factor for me. If it really was possible to rig a US election, does anyone seriously think that Joe Biden would be the one to take advantage rather than Donald Trump?

[upthemaggies]

It seems like quite a lot of Republicans are convinced that electoral fraud really happened, but I'm equally convinced that it's just sheer desperation from Trump. He will never, ever admit that he was beaten fair and square, so he thinks if he repeats it often enough many of his diehard supporters will be taken in, and it looks like they are.

No different to Hilary Clinton saying the Russians fixed the last election. Some people still believe that.
I can see this being par for the course from now on in US elections no matter who wins until democracy collapses. Seems both sides are now gagging for a dictatorship and totalitarianism,

[BigFatPie]

It seems like quite a lot of Republicans are convinced that electoral fraud really happened, but I'm equally convinced that it's just sheer desperation from Trump. He will never, ever admit that he was beaten fair and square, so he thinks if he repeats it often enough many of his diehard supporters will be taken in, and it looks like they are.

Every single claim has been thrown out by the courts, but there is one deciding factor for me. If it really was possible to rig a US election, does anyone seriously think that Joe Biden would be the one to take advantage rather than Donald Trump?

The concerning thing is that like the villains in scooby doo who were only caught because of those ‘meddlin kids’ Trump was only stopped by those meddlin courts.

A less stupid authoritarian might pull it off next time.

[the_anticlough]

It seems like quite a lot of Republicans are convinced that electoral fraud really happened, but I'm equally convinced that it's just sheer desperation from Trump. He will never, ever admit that he was beaten fair and square, so he thinks if he repeats it often enough many of his diehard supporters will be taken in, and it looks like they are.

Every single claim has been thrown out by the courts, but there is one deciding factor for me. If it really was possible to rig a US election, does anyone seriously think that Joe Biden would be the one to take advantage rather than Donald Trump?

And to rig to the tune of over 7 million votes would make him a riggin' genius

[LaxtonLad]

It seems like quite a lot of Republicans are convinced that electoral fraud really happened, but I'm equally convinced that it's just sheer desperation from Trump. He will never, ever admit that he was beaten fair and square, so he thinks if he repeats it often enough many of his diehard supporters will be taken in, and it looks like they are.

Every single claim has been thrown out by the courts, but there is one deciding factor for me. If it really was possible to rig a US election, does anyone seriously think that Joe Biden would be the one to take advantage rather than Donald Trump?

There are plenty of Americans who think there were no Moon landings, that the 9/11 attacks were an FBI plot, alien abductions are a reality, COVID is fake news, etc. All it takes is for Fox News to whisper "conspiracy!" and "Allah" in the same sentence and the yanks lap it up with a gun-totin' parade. Facts like no evidence only convince them of a cover up.

[i961pie]

There are plenty of Americans who think there were no Moon landings, that the 9/11 attacks were an FBI plot, alien abductions are a reality, COVID is fake news, etc. All it takes is for Fox News to whisper "conspiracy!" and "Allah" in the same sentence and the yanks lap it up with a gun-totin' parade. Facts like no evidence only convince them of a cover up.

It's not only Americans who think those things didn't happen, I know people who think the moon landings didn't happen and 9/11 was all Americas doing.

[BigFatPie]

By the way Driller, I’m interested in what you think would have happened if that been a BLM protest last week?

[jackal2]

Thanks for the attempt at answering the questions I had, Jackal seems reluctant to for whatever reason.

Unfortunately (or fortunately) I don’t have all day to spend on NCM providing instant responses to every question you ask, but I'll respond as and when I wish to.

As 1961pie said, trying to encapsulate the views of over 70 million voters or even several thousand protesters into a few paragraphs is not an easy task for someone who doesn’t even live in the USA. Drillerpie has made a very good effort to do so and I generally think his observations are fair. There will no doubt be many other factors too.

I am not “ducking” the issue of the latent racial tension which is well documented in American society, but neither am I fixating on it. Amongst the Trump voters there will be hardline racists who will never engage with Biden and with whom it is probably impossible to reason in general. Likewise, I doubt even the most conciliatory of Republicans would get far in trying to open up a constructive dialogue with Antifa and their like.

However, there will be millions of Trump/Republican voters who are not racists and Q Anon conspiracy theorists. That’s why I focused on the broader strategic point that Biden must try to engage with as many of these disillusioned (but not deranged) voters as he can. He needs to listen and try to understand their views and concerns. He must avoid the mistake of dismissing all Trump voters as a bunch of racist, gun-toting, bible-bashing, violent loons.

Given the generally calm and constructive tone of the new President I don’t think he will adopt a dismissive attitude. It doesn’t appear to be in his nature. His problem may be whether some of his Democrat/’progressive’ colleagues will be as constructive, or whether their instinct is to ignore, deride, or even punish a significant portion of the population for holding views that differ their own.