O/T Disgrace Cummings

[WanChaiMiller]

Problem with this statement animal is. If Boris does pull off a great deal for the UK and we are In a prominent position in 4 years time you must now vote Tory in the next election. Is this something you are prepared to do?.
Prob the same goes for Roly. I don't have problems party bashing bit same would need applying to doff the cap when /if it's reversed

This is the ultimate dilemma for Animal - siding with millionaire Tories to 'get Brexit done' then being saddled with them in aftermath.

[tony260674]

I haven't commented on this thread as I don't feel as strongly as some and the party political stuff quickly gets out of hand. I don't think that what Cummings did was crime of the century, if you believe the first part about his reason for travelling to Durham, I am sure that would have been a decision that some of us would have made, so as a human and a parent I don't 'mark him down'. Even the second trip to the castle was hardly a hanging offence (leaving aside the preposterous excuse for a moment). Popping to a local beauty spot to cheer up his wife on her birthday after a crap couple of weeks when they were both feeling better was a breach of the rules but hardly the worst thing we have seen recently. The problem is clearly that as one of the architects of the government lockdown policy, you have to abide by it, the rules, the spirit of the rules and the letter of the rules. All of it. He didn't and as such he should have resigned or at the very least apologised and honestly explained himself, not wait all weekend to see what he could get away with and then come out with some nonsense that happened to fit around what he had been caught doing.
The really sad thing has been they way the story has been handled and the implications this has for political discourse in future. For decades politicians and advisors that have been caught with their pants down/their fingers in the till or doing something that caused embarrassment resigned from their roles. The talented ones rose back through the ranks and after the requisite time period had elapsed, got back to the lofty heights before their shame. Had Cummings resigned on Saturday morning the consequences would have been relatively minor. The story would have fizzled out much more quickly and I have no doubt that Cummings would have carried on doing essentially what he does now from the end of a phone for the next 6 months before rising again like a phoenix from the flames when we had all moved on with our lives. Not only would this have benefitted Mr Johnson, it would have benefitted the government's lockdown policy and stopped attention being taken away from the public health message.
Unfortunately we are now in a new era of politics where rather than take their medicine, the government decided to lie and bull**** until the cows came home and this is what grinds my gears and leaves me worried about the future. Although this is straight out of the Trump playbook, I don't think this is a party political left/right thing, I think it is the new landscape we inhabit. No longer do people analyse what is being said, they analyse who is saying it and whether they reflect the political ideology they personally hold. Because of this the government felt they could lie their way through this, use loopholes that were intended for child protection from domestic abuse to cover their man and try to make us believe that we hadn't heard what we thought we had heard. The excuse about testing his eye sight was laughable, even given this is no laughing matter. If you do believe this, please stop and think for a moment, would you believe it from someone whose politics you disagree with?
They may or may not have misjudged their audience on this one. Cummings has made a lot of enemies across the political spectrum and as well as those that are horrified by his behaviour, there are plenty more who are enjoying seeing him squirm and most of them are to his right, not his left.
If the government rides this out then this will be the default tactic going forward. It won't matter if it's tory/Labour/Coalition whatever, they will lie and lie and lie, so I hope he is removed for that reason.
The biggest victim here will be the government's public health policy. I don't want to get into the rights and wrongs but despite a few headlines over beaches, the public's response has been unprecedented and I imagine beyond what was expected. Inevitably this will now reduce. Trust in the policy has been damaged and the NHS app in particular is now a dead duck. Beyond the technical problems they have had, with those concerned about privacy on one side and those who feel it's 'one rule for us and one rule for them' on the other side, the chances of getting the downloads required are zero.

[howdydoo]

I haven't commented on this thread as I don't feel as strongly as some and the party political stuff quickly gets out of hand. I don't think that what Cummings did was crime of the century, if you believe the first part about his reason for travelling to Durham, I am sure that would have been a decision that some of us would have made, so as a human and a parent I don't 'mark him down'. Even the second trip to the castle was hardly a hanging offence (leaving aside the preposterous excuse for a moment). Popping to a local beauty spot to cheer up his wife on her birthday after a crap couple of weeks when they were both feeling better was a breach of the rules but hardly the worst thing we have seen recently. The problem is clearly that as one of the architects of the government lockdown policy, you have to abide by it, the rules, the spirit of the rules and the letter of the rules. All of it. He didn't and as such he should have resigned or at the very least apologised and honestly explained himself, not wait all weekend to see what he could get away with and then come out with some nonsense that happened to fit around what he had been caught doing.
The really sad thing has been they way the story has been handled and the implications this has for political discourse in future. For decades politicians and advisors that have been caught with their pants down/their fingers in the till or doing something that caused embarrassment resigned from their roles. The talented ones rose back through the ranks and after the requisite time period had elapsed, got back to the lofty heights before their shame. Had Cummings resigned on Saturday morning the consequences would have been relatively minor. The story would have fizzled out much more quickly and I have no doubt that Cummings would have carried on doing essentially what he does now from the end of a phone for the next 6 months before rising again like a phoenix from the flames when we had all moved on with our lives. Not only would this have benefitted Mr Johnson, it would have benefitted the government's lockdown policy and stopped attention being taken away from the public health message.
Unfortunately we are now in a new era of politics where rather than take their medicine, the government decided to lie and bull**** until the cows came home and this is what grinds my gears and leaves me worried about the future. Although this is straight out of the Trump playbook, I don't think this is a party political left/right thing, I think it is the new landscape we inhabit. No longer do people analyse what is being said, they analyse who is saying it and whether they reflect the political ideology they personally hold. Because of this the government felt they could lie their way through this, use loopholes that were intended for child protection from domestic abuse to cover their man and try to make us believe that we hadn't heard what we thought we had heard. The excuse about testing his eye sight was laughable, even given this is no laughing matter. If you do believe this, please stop and think for a moment, would you believe it from someone whose politics you disagree with?
They may or may not have misjudged their audience on this one. Cummings has made a lot of enemies across the political spectrum and as well as those that are horrified by his behaviour, there are plenty more who are enjoying seeing him squirm and most of them are to his right, not his left.
If the government rides this out then this will be the default tactic going forward. It won't matter if it's tory/Labour/Coalition whatever, they will lie and lie and lie, so I hope he is removed for that reason.
The biggest victim here will be the government's public health policy. I don't want to get into the rights and wrongs but despite a few headlines over beaches, the public's response has been unprecedented and I imagine beyond what was expected. Inevitably this will now reduce. Trust in the policy has been damaged and the NHS app in particular is now a dead duck. Beyond the technical problems they have had, with those concerned about privacy on one side and those who feel it's 'one rule for us and one rule for them' on the other side, the chances of getting the downloads required are zero.

Good post Tony. He should have held his hand up and resigned. I don't think he was going to hold a lockdown party or take things to the extreme but he's been caught with his pants down. Not sure the press/media have come out of this well either. The performance of Peston and the rest has been abysmal, in my opinion.

Sorry but we've had 4 days of the same old questions. There should have been more Q&A about how we come out of lockdown. We are entering a critical phase.

Hope you and your family are keeping safe.

[tony260674]

Good post Tony. He should have held his hand up and resigned. I don't think he was going to hold a lockdown party or take things to the extreme but he's been caught with his pants down. Not sure the press/media have come out of this well either. The performance of Peston and the rest has been abysmal, in my opinion.

Sorry but we've had 4 days of the same old questions. There should have been more Q&A about how we come out of lockdown. We are entering a critical phase.

Hope you and your family are keeping safe.

As well as having the politicians we deserve, we have the press we deserve. However, when people say 'why are there no honest politicians', it's because you didn't vote for them.

[KerrAvon]

As well as having the politicians we deserve, we have the press we deserve. However, when people say 'why are there no honest politicians', it's because you didn't vote for them.

You can only vote for what is put in front of you. The December 2019 election was a choice between two people who should not have been anywhere near the top of their parties. It was the battle of the unelectables.

[KerrAvon]

I haven't commented on this thread as I don't feel as strongly as some and the party political stuff quickly gets out of hand. I don't think that what Cummings did was crime of the century, if you believe the first part about his reason for travelling to Durham, I am sure that would have been a decision that some of us would have made, so as a human and a parent I don't 'mark him down'. Even the second trip to the castle was hardly a hanging offence (leaving aside the preposterous excuse for a moment). Popping to a local beauty spot to cheer up his wife on her birthday after a crap couple of weeks when they were both feeling better was a breach of the rules but hardly the worst thing we have seen recently. The problem is clearly that as one of the architects of the government lockdown policy, you have to abide by it, the rules, the spirit of the rules and the letter of the rules. All of it. He didn't and as such he should have resigned or at the very least apologised and honestly explained himself, not wait all weekend to see what he could get away with and then come out with some nonsense that happened to fit around what he had been caught doing.
The really sad thing has been they way the story has been handled and the implications this has for political discourse in future. For decades politicians and advisors that have been caught with their pants down/their fingers in the till or doing something that caused embarrassment resigned from their roles. The talented ones rose back through the ranks and after the requisite time period had elapsed, got back to the lofty heights before their shame. Had Cummings resigned on Saturday morning the consequences would have been relatively minor. The story would have fizzled out much more quickly and I have no doubt that Cummings would have carried on doing essentially what he does now from the end of a phone for the next 6 months before rising again like a phoenix from the flames when we had all moved on with our lives. Not only would this have benefitted Mr Johnson, it would have benefitted the government's lockdown policy and stopped attention being taken away from the public health message.
Unfortunately we are now in a new era of politics where rather than take their medicine, the government decided to lie and bull**** until the cows came home and this is what grinds my gears and leaves me worried about the future. Although this is straight out of the Trump playbook, I don't think this is a party political left/right thing, I think it is the new landscape we inhabit. No longer do people analyse what is being said, they analyse who is saying it and whether they reflect the political ideology they personally hold. Because of this the government felt they could lie their way through this, use loopholes that were intended for child protection from domestic abuse to cover their man and try to make us believe that we hadn't heard what we thought we had heard. The excuse about testing his eye sight was laughable, even given this is no laughing matter. If you do believe this, please stop and think for a moment, would you believe it from someone whose politics you disagree with?
They may or may not have misjudged their audience on this one. Cummings has made a lot of enemies across the political spectrum and as well as those that are horrified by his behaviour, there are plenty more who are enjoying seeing him squirm and most of them are to his right, not his left.
If the government rides this out then this will be the default tactic going forward. It won't matter if it's tory/Labour/Coalition whatever, they will lie and lie and lie, so I hope he is removed for that reason.
The biggest victim here will be the government's public health policy. I don't want to get into the rights and wrongs but despite a few headlines over beaches, the public's response has been unprecedented and I imagine beyond what was expected. Inevitably this will now reduce. Trust in the policy has been damaged and the NHS app in particular is now a dead duck. Beyond the technical problems they have had, with those concerned about privacy on one side and those who feel it's 'one rule for us and one rule for them' on the other side, the chances of getting the downloads required are zero.

I pretty much agree with that Tony subject to a few caveats:

1. I don't think a lack of ministerial responsibility is a new phenomenon. The slide probably started in the late 80s, and was well advanced by the turn of the century;
2. A lack of honesty from politicians is certainly not a new phenomenon and is not restricted to the Tories by any means.

What is new is the Trump style approach where you look the camera in the eye and tell a big whopper in the sure and certain knowledge that the majority of the people watching will know it's a whopper.

It's almost as though we have come to expect porkies as a matter of course such that we don't even blink when it happens. This is one of the reasons why I am so disillusioned and, at times, angry about what our political parties offer us, but there is nobody to blame but ourselves. As I observed in an earlier thread, we have become a people that thinks that there are easy and painless solutions to every problem and, if there aren't, we would prefer politicians to simply lie and tell us that there are.

[WanChaiMiller]

Why would I make allowances for Labour atm? they’re not in number 10, they’re not running things.

Tell me Roly would you say the same things if it was labour in power?

Would you be saying the same thing if Labour was in power?

[millertop]

Would you be saying the same thing if Labour was in power?

Read my posts then you’d find the answer

[WanChaiMiller]

Jesus Tony, you may have kept out up to now but certainly made up for it.

[rolymiller]

That's the problem Roly. Your not even giving johnson/torys the chance. you have dismissed it before even seeing what we end up with.
It reminds me of when May went for the 2nd vote on Brexit deal. Sky news asked a labour parliament member
"Which way are you voting" she replied NO. "I can't back that deal". The reporter then asked if she had read it which she responded. NO not yet but it will be the same as the last deal

Regards do I think Johnson will get a good deal. I'm not sure. I would hope he will. What I can't do is criticise him without seeing what he has to offer.
It's the same looking at covid. There is a few mistakes made but a lot of positive things they have also done. And hopefully going forwards the NHS will get the reform it desperately needs due to this tragedy.

I have given the Tories a chance. I have said I will vote for them if they get the deal that looks after the poor in this country.